Accounts Commission September 2025 meeting transcript 
11 September 2025 
  
Jo Armstrong   0:00 
Welcome to today’s meeting of the Accounts Commission. We are today in Edinburgh.
The public session of today’s meeting is, I must remind you, is being recorded, and the recording will be made available by Accounts Commission website as soon as is possible. Also available on request in the interim. 
Members of the public are also welcome to absorb… to observe the public session of the Commission's meeting today.
Those who are watching this morning, thank you for taking time to join us. You're here to observe, though, and to not participate. And therefore your camera and microphone are already off.
For anyone participating in the meeting who is joining us online, please keep your camera off and your microphone on mute except when it's your item. And may I ask all of those who are speaking during the meeting to speak clearly and loudly for the benefit of the recording, but also for anybody with reduced hearing.
That takes us to item 1, apologies. Any apologies for the absence.

Sarah Watters 1:02
No apologies.

Jo Armstrong  1:04
Any declarations of interest or new declarations of connections. Derek.

Derek Yule 1:19
Just one, I think it's a minor one. Reading the papers, item 9, the leisure trusts. I am currently working with a community group in Clackmannanshire
 that's pursuing a transfer of ownership and I know the paper actually makes reference to Clackmannanshire Council. It's not the one I'm involved in and I don't think it precludes me participating, but I just wanted to mention it.

Jo Armstrong
Thank you. Jennifer.

Jennifer Henderson
Just in relation to item 11, as a chief executive of a public body, I'll obviously be on the receiving end of the annual audit process next year. But I don't think that precludes me from discussing the planning guidance. Thank you.
Angela.

Angela Leitch
And on item 9, I don't think it precludes me, but I'm currently undertaking a review of Creative Scotland and the national body culture and…

Jo Armstrong
Wait a minute, that was really hard to hear. I don't know how we’re…
OK. Angela, can I maybe ask you to speak slightly louder on that one so that we can get it on the record.

Angela Leitch
OK. I wanted just to declare that I am currently undertaking a review of Creative Scotland, the national body for Culture and Art, but it's not mentioned or referenced in the report.

Jo Armstrong
OK, thank you. Malcolm.

Malcolm Bell
Thanks, chair. It's similar to Jennifer's, as a board member of a public body, item 11, it’s just by way of transparency.

Carol Evans
Similarly, on item 11 I am a board member of two other public bodies that are being audited but again I don’t see it being material for today. 

Jo Armstrong 2:42
Fine, OK. That's good for having on the record. Thank you for that.
OK, item 3 is order of business. As normal I'd like to seek the Commission's approval for the order of business today. I propose that we consider items 8 to 15 in private for the reasons set out on the agenda, are Members agreed?

Various
Agreed.

Jo Armstrong 3:03
Takes us to item 4 matters arising from the previous… minutes and matters arising from the previous meeting. Sarah.

Sarah Watters
Thank you. There were three actions from the last meeting. The policy manager’s update will cover the query… does cover the query in relation to teacher contact time.
The Controller of Audit is scheduling the next Scrutiny Coordination Group meeting for October. And the wording in relation to financial sustainability in our Impact report, considered at the last meeting, has been amended.
And the only other thing to which to draw members attention is that under item 5 and 10 at the last meeting we considered the section 102 report on Glasgow City Council and as stated in the Commission's findings, Andrew Burns has now written to all Council leaders and chief executives, copied to directors of finance and external auditors, to request that they 
review their scheme of delegation and decision making processes and learn the relevant lessons from the report.

Jo Armstrong 4:00
Thank you. Any questions on the minutes, before I seek agreement to approve the minutes.
Takes us to item 5 local government policy update and, to Joe.

Joe Chapman 4:18
Thanks Jo.
Yes, a relatively short report, but I think there's still a few key issues coming through in it.
As Sarah mentioned in regards to minutes, obviously that update on the discussions around teacher numbers and reducing class contact time, perhaps not as substantive, I guess, an update in terms of an agreement being reached etcetera that we might have anticipated. But that is the update that government has issued.

The one update since the report was written, the one sort of key update is from the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government, who has advised that it will be difficult to schedule
 the Scottish budget for the usual timing in December as a result of the UK budget being a bit later than had been expected or than it is normally. 
There’s no decision yet on when the budget actually will be, but I guess they’re balancing between allowing themselves time after the UK budget for not only the Scottish budget but also the spending review that they're planning to publish at the 
same time, but at the same time mindful that there's a limited time after Christmas, 
especially given the dissolution of Parliament ahead of the election, which will, that will come in March. So yeah, a bit of a narrow window for them to fit that in.
That’s all I wanted to add, and happy to answer any questions.

Jo Armstrong
Questions for Joe. Again a useful summary of what’s going on in the sector. Derek. 

Derek Yule
OK. Just a couple of quick questions, a question and a comment. First one, obviously we would be planning to produce our budget overview documents. I guess what you're saying, Joe, potentially puts the timescale for that in, in doubt, and pushes us back.
Another comment I was going to make, I suppose just noting disappointment again just reading in the report, another council which has reversed budget savings decisions on the back of community backlash. And the narrative suggests that they haven't consulted 
properly in the first place. So again, I think it's worthwhile noting disappointment, this continues to be a trend that we're seeing.

Joe Chapman 6:43
Yeah, absolutely. Obviously when we have the decision on when the budget is, that will then inform about when the, the sort of, our follow-up, internal and external, on the budget will be. And yes, absolutely, it is another example that appears to be a case of a council going back on a decision, and accusations
 from the community that there hadn't been a proper consultation process and as you know, it's a focus of a lot of our overview reports in general.

Jo Armstrong  7:07
Any other questions for Joe?
Thanks Joe. 
Takes us to Chair’s update. You’ve got a paper, a short summary of some of the things I've been doing. I've wanted to kind of flag up two or three things of note to me, I think. I've talked about attending the Solace conference, this year's Solace Conference which whilst it was
 inevitably, a challenge for most of chief execs and finance directors and those in the sector, recognising the financial challenges, did feel a bit more upbeat to me about, well, actually, do you know what, we are now the group that can make a difference and if it’s not now then when? So I felt slightly more 
uplifted than I did last year that there is an acceptance that now we can, we can actually probably do some of the more difficult things because there is, the option is not an option anymore. So that was an interesting kind of feeling for me.
We went to see, following up the BV in East Lothian. We went to see… Malcolm. Jennifer and I went to see the Council and the leader and again another useful insight into their thinking about our reports. Again, strong support for what we're
And the kind of
 perennial challenge about frustration at not being able to make a contribution at the actual best value review itself.
But we have, we've been signalling… signalled that we're mindful of if there's any significant issues that they would, we would choose to bring that to a future Commission and speak about publicly so there 
is some sort of a formal route out to some of the frustrations they might feel.
But we did flag up the idea that they should make sure they get fully engaged with the process, so that anything that does come to the Commission, they've, they're sighted on, comfortable with and have managed to put all the evidence out there ahead of it coming to a Commission rather than waiting and saying that we didn't get a chance to bring this forward.
Jennifer and Malcolm, is there anything you would like to pick up or say specifically about that, again, just a useful…

Malcolm Bell
I thought it was a really positive meeting, chair, and they did, they accepted everything we said in the findings. So I found it really very positive.
And it's a really useful forum I think, and it's something we should, I know we’re going to touch on it later, but it’s something we need to try and build on.

Jennifer Henderson
My only observation, I suppose, is the convers… it was a really useful conversation, and it was an opportunity to discuss some of the good stuff that's going on. I mean, I think naturally, the conversation tends to focus on the areas where they're perhaps thinking there’s a criticism or a request for improvement, but we were able to call out a number of things that we almost don’t say anything about because we would see them as, as areas where the Council’s doing it well, and I think, I got the sense that there was comfort from that understanding that we do recognise the stuff that we, in other areas, perhaps,

 are calling for improvement, but isn't an area we thought we needed to signal for this particular Council.

Jo Armstrong  10:27
I think it gives us a good, a good insight at the local level, what's of interest and importance to the chief execs and the Council officials and leaders, which is important because that's principally who our reports are targeting, that and the community. So I think that was a, is a good session,  and is a good forum to be doing.

So we are, again, just wanted to pick up our consultation on our work programme, which, we’ve had the formal kind of correspondence back which has been good. But Andrew and I went to meet the Directors of Finance section at COSLA, We also met with the Alliance, and Malcolm and Sarah attended IJB Chief Officers forum. And all are supportive of our work and, but asking us to maybe sometimes be a bit more focused on priorities, which is a reasonable challenge back.
But they do, they do value the work that we're producing, which I think gives us comfort that we’re having an impact, the right impact, and doing some of the right things. 
Andrew, you also attended Scottish Government's local government directorate team day and I think you had an interesting session.

Andrew Burns 11:30
Yeah it was interesting, Jo, I thought it was really positive that the local government directorate invited the Commission to go and speak to them at their sort of away day, although it was on site at Victoria Quay.
When I arrived there, there was like 6 of the teams represented from the Directorate. There was about 25 to 30 folk in the room and I just gave a 10 or 15 minute overview of the Commission's role, its work and what it undertook. And then there was about 30-40 minutes of discussion and questions and it was really constructive and positive.
And I think the feedback I've had from Ellen Leaver was, was positive as well, so a really worthwhile engagement to take part in, I think.
Jo Armstrong  12:14
I think communication to all stakeholders is important and we're, we’re really making a difference, I think, this year of getting out and about and getting 

that, our voice out, but also getting feedback which is valuable from our, deciding what our work programme is going to look… so good, thank you for that.
Any questions on any of those items or anything on the page in the pack?
No, OK.
Any other public business anybody wishes to raise?
So on that basis, I'll ask to 
close the public business as of now. Thank you.