Accounts Commission Public Session – December 2025

Part One (opening and North Lanarkshire BV report)
Skip to Part Two

Jo Armstrong 0:07
So welcome to today’s meeting of the Accounts Commission, which is being held in Edinburgh. The public session of today's meeting is, as always, being recorded. The recording of the meeting will be made available via the Accounts Commission website as soon as possible and is available on request in the interim.
Members of the public are also welcome to observe the public session of today's meeting. Those who are watching this morning. Thank you for taking the time to join us. But you're here to observe, not to participate. And therefore your camera and microphone are already off.
I'd particularly like to, to welcome the representatives from North Lanarkshire Council, some of whom are in the room today in Westport, and I know some are watching online. Thank you for joining us.
For anyone participating in the meeting who's joining us online, please keep your camera off and your microphone on mute, except when it's your item. May I also ask those who are speaking during the meeting to speak clearly and loudly for the benefit of the recording and for anybody with reduced hearing.
That takes me to agenda item 1, apologies for absence. Sarah?

Sarah Watters 1:16
No, we have no apologies this morning.

Jo Armstrong 1:18 Thank you.
Item 2 is declarations of connections. Can I ask Members who have any connections of interest regarding any items on today's agenda to please state the connection of interest, whether they consider it material enough to need to recuse themselves.
Jennifer, Malcolm, Nichola, Carol.

Jennifer Henderson
A connection to item 12, the audit quality report as a chief exec of another body that's audited. Somewhere in there, my data about the quality of the audit that RoS has received is there, but I've taken advice and it's not considered material.
And as always, similarly for FPAM, chief exec of another public body. I have interest in the future of public audit model more widely than just the Accounts Commission.

Jo Armstrong
Thank you. Malcolm.

Malcolm Bell
Thanks chair, item 6, the joint working agreement with Improvement Service. The report references work between Audit Scotland and Standards Commission, of which I'm a member.
But this is at quite an operational level. I haven't even had a report on the meetings or the work from either organisation so I don't believe it's material, but for transparency I’m declaring it as a connection.
And likewise 14 and 15 FPAM…

Jo Armstrong
Thank you. Nichola.

Nichola Brown
I'd like to declare a connection for item 5, the best value in North Lanarkshire Council. I am CEO of an organisation, a third sector organisation which is in receipt of funding from North Lanarkshire Council and I also sit on the Strategic Leadership Board, the community planning partnership within North Lanarkshire.
Therefore having considered this and discussed with the Director, I would like to recuse myself for that item, so I'll be leaving the room and not partaking in the discussions.

Jo Armstrong
Thanks Nichola. Carol.

Carol Evans

And mine’s about item 12, 14 and 15. I'm a non-executive director for a couple of the bodies that are audited by Audit Scotland and the firms and obviously subject to the changes in audit conditions that will come from FPAM.
But again, it's not material in nature and I can stay in the room.

Angela Leitch
Yep. Similarly, items 12, 14 and 15. I’m a member of an audited body, but it's not material and I’ll stay in the room.

Jo Armstrong 3:53
Any other connections not yet…
OK. Thank you very much. That takes us to item 3, order of business. As normal. I'd like to seek the Commission's approval for the order of business today, I propose that we consider items 10 through to 17 in private for the reasons set out on the agenda. Are members agreed?
Item 4 minutes and matters arising from the previous meeting. Sarah.

Sarah Watters 4:20
Yes, thank you. There were two matters arising and actions coming from the last meeting. One was in relation to the best value transformation thematic. We've now confirmed that that will be published in May 2026. And in relation to the other action, sponsors are currently being confirmed for the new work programme for 26/27 and I'm working with Alison, Director, Exec Director of PABV to confirm that. And we're also going to be reviewing the sponsor guidance alongside PABV now that it's been in place a year, just to make sure it's working for members and for the performance audit teams.
Happy to take any questions on the minute.

Jo Armstrong 5:02
Are we content with the minute to approve?
Takes us to one of the substantive items of today's, which is the Best Value in North Lanarkshire Council.
This is a statutory report by the Controller of Audit on best value in North Lanarkshire. The report draws attention to the findings from the Council's 24/25

annual report on how effectively it demonstrates best value. The Commission is invited to consider and endorse the Controller’s report in this session. We will then consider in private Later today how we wish to proceed.
The Controller and the audit team are here to provide any clarifications or answers to questions that members may have on both the Controller’s report and the annual audit report as it relates to best value. We will then consider in private later how we wish to proceed.
Helen, I'm handing over to you.

Helena Gray 5:55
Thank you and good morning everybody, and I welcome the opportunity to present my report on best value within North Lanarkshire Council this morning. I'm delighted to be joined by John, the audit director, and between us we will attempt to answer any questions that you might have.
My report sets out that North Lanarkshire continues to demonstrate its commitment to best value and continuous improvement.
The Council has taken forward all the recommendations highlighted in its previous 2018 best value assurance report and continues to make good and timely progress in implementing areas highlighted by auditors in subsequent best value thematic reports.
The council and its partners articulated a shared vision for North Lanarkshire in 2019, which is supported by a programme of work setting out seven priorities for delivery over the period to 2028.
The council has a strategic performance framework that supports this programme of work and is reviewed annually. This includes 28 health check indicators, which the Council has committed to reporting publicly against from June 2026 as part of its commitment to strengthen public performance reporting. Overall, the auditor has reported a mixed picture of performance in the 24/25 annual audit report, with a trend of improvement in some areas while challenges remain in others.
When looking at the Local Government Benchmarking Framework, the proportion of the council's indicators in the top 2 quartiles when compared to other councils has declined by 4 percentage points since the base year, suggesting the pace of improvement has slowed slightly in the short term compared to others.
The Council has embedded transformation within its work programme to 2028, which includes a community investment fund to support capital investment and

economic regeneration. Auditors have concluded that the council has effective governance arrangements in place to oversee its work on transformation, including comprehensive updates to elected members. Progress is monitored through its wider performance reporting, but it does not currently track or report transformation benefits at project level and has committed to address this through the development of a benefits realisation tool.
The council updates its medium-term financial plan annually and is projecting a cumulative budget gap of 136.9 million from 26/27 to 2030/31. It is not yet clear how the council will address this budget gap and like many councils, a strategic shift is now essential to ensure continued financial sustainability and service delivery. The council recognise there needs to be a clear link between it transforming its services and addressing its budget gap by delivering transformation in a financially sustainable way.
The audit team concluded that the council has demonstrated effective financial management and has consistently delivered savings, including delivering 20.2 million savings from its 24/25 budget through changes to service operating models, reducing levels of service provision, and efficiency measures. They take the cumulative total of savings delivered by the council since 2021 to over 80 million.
The Council's 25/26 budget included the use of 5.6 million reserves to manage cost pressures and delivery of approved savings. In considering its financial sustainability, auditors have highlighted that the council will need to ensure that it applies its reserves strategically, which include reviewing how its reserves are earmarked and intended to be used.
Finally, given my recent statutory report on senior exit packages at Glasgow City Council, I know the Commission will be interested in the council's handling of the departure of two chief officers on efficiency grounds, which I have highlighted in my report. Auditors concluded that the approval process was in line with the council's internal policy, but that there was scope for greater transparency around the alternative options considered, and with elected members on the wider implications and risks of the proposed restructure.
I'll pause there, but John and I will do our best to answer questions the Commission may have.

Jo Armstrong 10:01
Thanks, Helena. Again, a useful summary of the report.

Our standard procedure for discussing these reports is to organise our lines of questioning into themes and today we have 6 themes. I'll just, for those who are watching or listening, the themes are under finance, transformation, performance, leadership and government, workforce, and then some very specific items for North Lanarkshire that we thought worthy of bringing out separately.
So if I start off with finance and can I turn to Ruth to start the questioning?

Ruth MacLeod 10:38
Thank you very much. Thank you for the papers, which are very clear and give quite a breadth and complex picture of what's going on in North Lanarkshire and a lot of good practice there as well in terms of delivering benefits for residents.
You mentioned also the effective financial management that does come through in the report, but I wonder, given the envisaged budget gap in the next 5 years of 136.9 million, if you can say a little bit more about how the council intends to close that gap? I know that officers have identified that transformation alone is not going to be able to close that gap.
But how is the council going to demonstrate that the different aspects in terms of recurring savings and changes to service delivery to address that significant gap?

Helena Gray 11:36
Thank you. And I'll start and then I'll bring John in who may have further detail to add. And I think it probably makes sense to start with the medium term financial plan, which as I said in my opening remarks forecast a cumulative budget gap of
136.9 million.
I think it is also worth highlighting that, as I've set out in my report, and the Commission will appreciate it’s challenging comparing the size of different budget gaps across councils, but I think it is worth noting that this is a relatively lower budget gap compared to some other councils in Scotland when taken as a percentage of total budget.
Just to set out a couple of points then in relation to that medium term financial plan, the first would be around council tax. So the position set out in the medium term financial plan is prior to any consideration of council tax increases. On savings, I've already mentioned the track record that the council has of delivering savings, but it's not clear within the medium term financial plan where further savings will come from to close that gap.

Similarly on transformation, while the council has embedded transformation into its work programme, they've not set out the benefits that they expect to be realised from that work on transformation, both financial and non-financial, and it is important to remember that transformation is wider than just the Financial benefits. But again, they haven't set out the extent to which that will help close the budget gap.
And then finally on reserves, the general fund reserves has 30 point… 31.9 million that is earmarked for future budget pressures, but again, the medium term financial plan doesn't set out the detail of how that will be used to close the gap. Which is why I think auditors have therefore highlighted that that strategic shift is now needed to ensure that financial sustainability in service delivery and the Council needs to be clear now, I think, on where it is going to use those, those tools that I've already mentioned to close its medium term financial gap.
John, I don't know if you want to add any detail?

John Boyd 13:50
Yeah, really, just to add to… One of the areas we'd highlighted within the annual audit report was in relation to reserves and that's an action that the council is in the process of implementing and actually recently a report went to the committee around setting a revised reserve strategy, recognising the financial pressures that the council faces and the importance of having resilient financial planning and sufficient reserves in place in for both known and unforeseen circumstances, and that will underpin the future financial strategy.

Ruth MacLeod
Thank you very much.

Jo Armstrong
OK. Others on finance. Carol.

Carol Evans 14:37
Yes, thank you for the papers and it's very good to see and I'd like to commend the council for having what appears to be embedding the transformation and particularly in the communications that they're not even needing to use the word transformation kind of is evidence that it's embedded. And also for their commitment to savings.

And that kind of brings me to my question. So from the past savings, which is excellent that they're making the savings, it mentioned and you mentioned in your intro, Helena, it's from service reductions, efficiencies and other cost saving measures. I was just wondering the proportion that was service reduction because obviously we're a bit concerned if all the savings were to come in that vein.
So it's what proportional split does that kind of break down into?

Helena Gray 15:21
Again, I'll bring John in who can I think give some examples of the savings that have been made. But I think I would sort of exercise a degree of caution around the terminology that we use to classify savings. So what might be one person's efficiency might be a service cut to another, might be redesign to another. So I think it is important just to, and the Commission will be well familiar with that as we've discussed that in a number of different reports. So I think it is important to recognise that sort of challenge when sort of trying to classify savings.
I think, I've already mentioned that 80 million that the council has delivered. So within 24/25 the Council delivered 22… 20.2 million through changes to operating models, reductions in service provision and efficiency measures and I’ll bring John in to give a bit more of a flavour of what those actually look like in practice.

John Boyd 16:18
Yeah so in terms of the savings themselves, the council take approach where the savings are focused at service level. So each of the services identifies areas where efficiency or cost saving measures could be made. And they range predominantly with the, with the highest cost being workforce, but looking at how to efficiently and effectively utilise those resources.
So it's difficult to determine exactly what would be what would be classed as a cost saving and what would be classed as an efficiency or…
But what we have seen and we observed from our, from our budget monitoring, is that it's at a service level. So the service is engaged as part of that budget saving process, so budget identifying and delivery, and therefore there's a continued focus on service delivery and performance, because those identifying the savings and delivering the savings are the ones who are also delivering the service.
So it’s at that grassroots level the savings plans are…

Carol Evans
That gives me comfort, then, that it's not just a case of we're not doing this, we're not doing this, we're not doing this, and the public's left without their services.
So, and that's further I suppose, back to my first comment, that, evidence that the transformation is embedded then.

Jo Armstrong
Mike.

Mike Neilson 17:43
Thanks very much. Just to agree with, thank you for the paper, which is very interesting, which I think reflects there's a sort of rich amount of stuff going on in North Lanarkshire including a lot of good practice, I think.
Couple of… I think the big question, I think we'll come back to on transformation is what you're… if not transformation, what? I think still a big question.
Two specific things. One is on capital.
Just to get a sense of the scale of the likely increase in borrowing and impact on overall financing from what looks like an ambitious programme. So I know there's a community investment fund which probably helps this.
And the second is in relation to how far pressure on health and social care and the IJB factors in the medium term financial strategy gap, whether it's, in your view, fully reflected.

Helena Gray 18:48
Thanks. And again, I'll bring John in particularly to talk about borrowing and capital, I think. Just a couple of points I suppose by way of context as well.
If we use the ratio of financing costs to revenue indicator within the Local Government Benchmarking Framework, North Lanarkshire Council is at 6.1% in 2023/24 which is and the Scotland average is 6% and the family group average is 6.6%. So I think that just gives a helpful context in terms of where the Council is sitting in that, in that space. But I'll bring John in to talk about that.
Just very specifically on the IJB, as well. Again, giving that comparative position I think is important, because the IJB in North Lanarkshire I think is in a comparatively better position than some.

Again, if we use the Commission's 23/24 IJB Finance bulletin tool, North Lanarkshire had a reserves position of 3rd. If you compare the net cost, percentage of net cost of services, it was sitting at 9.3%, just behind Angus at 9.9% in Western Isles at 10.7%, so that reserves position, as we know, is quite unusual.
In 24/25, the IJB also reported a small surplus on the provision of services, so again that contributed to the reserves position.
The IJB has approved a medium term financial plan in March 2025, which estimated a funding gap of 51.854 million over the three-year period. And they have also approved a reserves strategy.
So auditors have highlighted that the IJB needs to continue to develop and refine its medium term planning and savings plans and how it will apply its reserves strategy. But I think it is, in terms of that risk, sitting in a slightly different position to some others that we may have discussed previously.
But again, I'll bring John in to discuss the capital and borrowing and then John can perhaps share some of his observations around the IJB and the, and the council as he is also the auditor of the IJB.

John Boyd 21:04
Thanks. So as, as you've highlighted, there's an ambitious capital programme, particularly around housing, investing in the housing as part of the council's wider capital investment strategy.
What we've observed is that the council take a prudent and informed approach to council borrowing. The level of exposure, particularly in terms of borrowing cost, carefully monitored and measured through performance indicators, and as part of the capital investment strategy, borrowing strategy, these indicators are kept under continuous review.
Essentially, the council holds a relatively high cash balance, which it uses for investments, which help offset a degree of the borrowing, and that then reduces some of the exposure from, that external borrowing can provide.
The forecast increases over the next couple of years will be funded as a mixture of, as you mentioned, the community investment hub, the fund that essentially is earmarked for strategic investment.
There is also the use of the reserves balance and external, external borrowing, but these will all be kept under careful monitoring and we've got no concerns about their ability to resource and finance those.

You’ll see within the annual accounts, the notes to the accounts include interest rate risk, highlighting the council's exposure to that, and given the level of cash balances and investments, you can see that actually the exposure of the council to variances in interest rate is actually relatively low because a significant amount of their borrowing is essential fixed, in fixed rate terms.
Over the last 12 months, the borrowing has predominantly been, external borrowing has essentially been in short-term loans reflecting the high cost of borrowing at the market and that's anticipated using external, independent external advice, advisors for the Council. They'll look to then secure and more affordable longer-term borrowing when the market conditions improve.

Helena Gray
Do you want to say anything about the IJB?

John Boyd
Yes. So the IJB, in terms of the working relationship with the IJB, we see a strong working relationship. In terms of financial plans, they are embedded and integrated as part of the council's planning. The IJB has a model where the council will meet in terms of service delivery, in a number of areas, and therefore that's, embedded within both of, annual budget as well as the medium to longer-term financial planning.

Jo Armstrong
Derek.

Derek Yule 24:18
Thanks, chair and thanks very much for the report, I thought it was a very clear report, both the covering report and also the annual audit report, because I think I found from previous reports having to try and tease out answers and I think the recommendations from the information were really helpful, so probably that's modified the sort of list of questions that I might otherwise have had.
But I wanted to acknowledge the work of both the audit team and the council itself in meeting deadlines for the completion of audit. I know that's something that's exercised the Commission. So to have seen deadlines met and for us to be sitting in December with a fully signed off audit report for 24/25 is, is really helpful.

I wonder if I could pick up a couple of questions really flowing from some of your previous answers it’s round about the medium term financial strategy. Somebody said… does the budget gap that's forecast not assume any increase in council tax over that period, did I pick that up correctly from your, from your answer?
Which seemed quite strange, I would have thought that would have been built into the assumptions. So while you're highlighting that the budget gap is increasing, obviously, the ability of the council, barring any political decisions, either council or Scottish Government about future freezes, that that does give me a degree of reassurance that that scope is, is there for the Council, and you did make the point, Helena, that the council’s still to make these decisions going forward.
The other one area was the IJB, you said there was quite a, sounded quite a significant funding gap in the IJB. I assume that's not included in the council's funding gap or is it?
Because I think that goes back to the previous question about financial risk, if there's a significant gap in the IJB, is that factored into the council's own forecast going forward or not?

Helena Gray 26:27
Thanks and I’ll bring John in to pick up on some of those specifics. I suppose just on the, on the IJB funding gap, important to be clear, that's the IJB, and obviously partners will be responsible for different elements of that and that'll then be for the, for the council and other partners to think about how they are funding their share of that and I suppose how they are also working with the IJB to reduce the size of the gap through other measures as well. But I'll bring John in to see if he has anything further on that.
Just on council tax, I think it is worth highlighting. So the council agreed a council tax strategy in December 2024, I believe. And as part of that, they took the decision to increase council tax by 10% at that point, setting aside 2% for the additional capital investment that we've already discussed.
So the council tax strategy assumes 10% from 25/26 to 2027/28 and then returning to 1% thereafter.
But I'll bring John in to talk specifically about the relationship between those and the medium term financial planning if we've got that detail.

John Boyd 27:39
Yeah, we’d need to, I’d need to come back specifically just in terms of your question about the assumptions on the, on the financial plan in terms of its relation to the assumed council tax and whether they’re incorporated. My understanding was that they were incorporated into those savings plans. I do know for the year, the current year that essentially the council tax increase will meet the budget pressure in year, the identified budget pressures in year. But I would need to look at what that would mean for the medium term plan.

Derek Yule
Thanks.

Helena Gray
The IJB… the IJB and medium term financial plan.

John Boyd
Yeah. So the, so the IJB as Helena mentioned, the IJB budget gap is essentially the gap reported specifically for the IJB, so that incorporates both the health board and the council, with the council's financial plan reflecting the financial pressures that the IJB, their share, essentially, of the IJB’s budget gap, if that make sense.

Derek Yule
That's helpful. Thank you.

Jo Armstrong
Malcolm.

Malcolm Bell 28:53
Yeah. Thanks, chair. Thanks again for the report. I just want to touch on the reserves. The Council holds fairly substantial reserves, but little or zero in the way of uncommitted. So I'm just struggling a bit to understand the rationale for the levels of the earmarked reserves. So for example, the 8 million for contingency which seems quite, quite low.
So could we possibly hear a bit more about what the council are planning to do to develop a reserves policy, I guess.

Helena Gray 29:30
So obviously this is an area that auditors have recommended that the council undertake a review of its reserves. Just again to provide a bit of context, the level of usable reserves held by the council again now sits at a relatively high level.
If you use the local government benchmarking data, as a… total usable reserves as a percentage of the council annual budgeted income, North Lanarkshire is sitting at 34.1% in 24/25, which compares to a Scotland average of 19.3%.
So just to give that comparative picture. That does include, as I've already said, reserves earmarked for future budget pressures of 31.9 million, and 12.6 million earmarked for a change management fund. But as you've highlighted, the reserve policy requires a contingency of 8 million, which is in place, but is less than 1% of the council's annual budget. Hence again, why I think we've, auditors have highlighted the need for the council to review its reserves strategy.
And John, I don’t know if you've got any more to, to add to that?

John Boyd 30:44
Yeah. So, so the observation you are making is similar to one that we basically highlighted as part of, part of the annual, annual audit.
Essentially they’ll have a, what would they class as, what they would class as a kind of an unearmarked general fund balance of £8 million for contingency, but they’ve then also got a balance of approximately £32 million for, for budgetary pressures, which, in com… if I would compare that to other councils that would be similar to an unearmarked reserve, and we've essentially made the recommendation for the Council which they are in the process of taking forward as part of a strategic review of their general reserves to look at actually the process of earmarking and being clearer in terms of defining what the reserve balances are, or the purposes of the reserve balances are for.
The £8 million’s a historic balance that the council has continued to maintain, with other balances such as change reserves and the budgetary pressures used for that ongoing, essentially, contingency, if you like.

Jo Armstrong
If there are no other questions on finance we’ll move on to transformation and I’ll ask Andy.

Andrew Cowie 32:06
Thank you, chair. Thank you, Helena. Thank you, John, for the Controller’s report and the AAR as well. Makes very positive reading.
And we are always conscious that we're commenting, we're querying about the work of chief officers or directors of thousands of staff that have dedicated themselves and their working life to deliver the best service in challenging circumstances. So please take my questions in that vein around that, trying to help people, more power to the elbow to get even more out of the challenging circumstances … get the best out of staff time, really.
My topic of interest is benefit realisation around that. So that's, and I know you'll know this, it's paragraph 4 of your report, Helena, and it's around recommendations on page 43 and 44, John in yours, around that.
I think one thing, kind of, as a preliminary that we've seen in the Commission is that in civic Scotland, we're very busy being busy. There's, everyone sees another project, another initiative, another review and inquiry, etcetera, etcetera. We are perhaps less good as a country at actually looking at what works and that benefit realisation piece.
But that doesn't mean that people aren't really, really busy. So it's really about how can we help people hone staff time and bandwidth in most effect, so…
I recognise that you've commented around that high level monitoring of all these transformation projects is good when it's linking to outcomes, so that's great, that's a win on board. But it's more the concern that you've articulated, John, around project evaluation. And understand that there's a June 26 target for putting that in.
I guess it's statistically unlikely that North Lanarkshire would be the only local authority in the world that every project was successful. So if we operate on that basis, we then have to say well, which ones are giving the best return on investment, staff time and resource and bandwidth. And if we don't evaluate, we won't ever know.
In fact, it was even commented on by the guru of benefit realisation this week. Just to quote, and it’s a quote so I better say where it comes from Harvard Business Review this week and it's a guy called Gerard Leonard. And his quote, I think is quite pertinent for my question, which is coming, so don't give up!
His quote is that project bloat … capital clouds decision making and dilutes execution focus. And I suppose I would add to that, it also takes up a lot of staff bandwidth,

doesn't it? Because I bet North Lanarkshire doesn't have an extra army of thousands of people doing these projects. It'll be current staff doing this alongside their day job. So, the question is, looking at that benefits realisation framework and tool that's looking at a project level going into next year, John. Are you aware if it is actually going to be a suitable evaluative tool to add some value to that? Is there going to be sun-setting of unsuccessful projects but with dignity so that staff don't feel they've wasted their time around stuff that's not working? And is effort being redirected to stuff that will actually transform, will actually generate returns on that.
That's the question. Does that make sense?

Helena Gray 35:39
I think so. We'll give it our best shot!
A couple of things that I suppose I'd highlight within that. One in terms of the benefits realisation tool, and as I've already talked about, we need to remember the benefits are not just the financial benefits, but as you've said, some of the wider benefits as well.
So the Council, as you've mentioned, has agreed to take this forward by June 2026. So it's still a, still a work in progress and it's something that we’ll be coming back and looking at in in due course, but they've committed that that will measure both the financial benefits and the non-financial benefits.
I understand that their intention is that the tool will also set out examples of different benefits and attempt to categorise them. So for example, income generation, cost savings, productivity gains, and that they will also incorporate a tracker with a RAG rating status, to monitor the progress of each benefit. So I think that hopefully gives some comfort.
I think to sum up, to sum up what you were asking around the suitability of the evaluative tool. I suppose, as with any of these things, the key will be what they do with that tool in terms, as you've said, of sun-setting the projects and moving staff resources around, so they look at the, as they look at the priorities.
I think just coming to the point that you were making as well around resourcing. The reporting on the progress that they have at the moment as well does capture resourcing of the projects, so in May 2025, the council noted in its delivery plan that 234 out of the 243 of its projects were being delivered within available resources and they were assessed as green. Seven were amber, indicating that there were

resourcing concerns that were being managed, and one was red, indicating a critical resourcing issue.
I think it is important at this point to highlight because I obviously talked about 243 projects. This comes back to the embedding of transformation within its programme plan, so not all of those 243 projects are transformation projects. They are, that is the work programme that delivers the council plans that captures that, that captures everything and transformation is, of course embedded within that.
But hopefully that gives, again, some comfort as to how the council are looking at the resource pressures as well as the wider delivery. And then as I said, the delivery overall is tracked as well using the 28 health check indicators that the council uses overall to monitor its performance and delivery.
John, I don’t know if you’ve got anything to add at this point.

John Boyd 38:30
Related to… and that will be an area that will be focused on, you know, in terms of the effectiveness of the benefits realisation tool, both in terms of the realisation and monitoring of the benefits, but as you said, that informing decision making about when to potentially amend a project or to, to cancel a project or look for alternatives. What I can say is this, from observation of council committees, there is clear challenge and scrutiny around activity, so, including the transformation activity.
And elected members do hold officers to account around delivery.
And I don't think from, from my observations, I wouldn't have concerns, that the Council wouldn't make a decision to, you know, change or cancel a transformation activity that wasn't working or look for alternative options, so, from observations around that, although we've not seen the benefits realisation tool in practice, observation of committees would say it should work.

Andrew Cowie
I think it's maybe just a challenge for us as a Commission is, to get the next AAR to say this is good. What is the learning for corporate Scotland? For the other 31 authorities, that North Lanarkshire, given that there will be specific separation for the local context, but what's the learning about what projects worked and which didn’t, which would be difficult to evidence without it. So that sounds very positive. Thank you.

Carol Evans 40:05
And as a follow on, are any other councils using this pulse tool and is there options for if it's, if it is a good tool, for it to be rolled out more corporately, which gets into what you've just said.

Helena Gray 40:19
Yes so the, I'm not sure I know either way if others or are or aren't using the pulse tool.
Just for those that didn’t pick up, the pulse is programme uncertainty level status evaluation, and it's a tool that helps the board assess interdependencies, risks and confidence levels as part of its wider programme approach. It's essentially their tool for managing the programme of work.
As to whether others should or shouldn't be using it, I mean, I think I would highlight it is a tool and as with any tool, it's how it's used that’s the most important thing.
And there are lots of, you know, other tools may well be available, but I think the key thing is, is how the tool is used as part of the management of the project and the programme, which is the important thing.

Carol Evans
I misunderstood. I thought it was helping in the benefits realisation as well as in the management of the programme.

Helena Gray
It’s their programme management tool.

Jo Armstrong
I think it's something we can ask Improvement Service later on this morning when we’re… Could be an opportunity for them to think about how it could be, if it's got value, to be rolled out more widely.
Jennifer.

Jennifer Henderson 41:31
Thank you. Thank you for the report. Can I pick up on the workforce reform element that's sat under the sort of transformation heading and I was…
It was helpful to have sort of the previous year's thematic. So I read the workforce

thematic with great interest, and I noticed that that talked about the fact, then, the council hadn’t really started thinking about how it might need to reduce its workforce to reduce future savings targets. But that work was going to be happening to develop a future operating model and that that would be hopefully clarifying potential future workforce changes.
And I was just interested in an update on that because clearly, you know, the workforce is a large part of where the council money will be going. And I would be anticipating that as part of any transformation activity that thoughts about different sizes and shapes of workforce would be needed.
So just if there's an update on where that work has got to, that would be really helpful.

Helena Gray 42:27
Thanks. And I think the short answer is that work is still ongoing. So this is the… so over the course of 2024, chief officers were presenting their workforce transition plans, looking at how those services will support the council's future operating model over the next three to five years, and accounting for the current and future workforce challenges.
The actions are only due for implementation later this month, so we haven't done any formal follow-up on that work at this point. That's obviously something that we'll look at coming back to in due course.
And I think then the key thing as well is, is how those workforce plans link to the medium term financial plan going forward as well. And as we've always said, it's also how those plans are continually updated and evolve as plans progress. and that they, they stay relevant.
But I don't think we have an update at this point on that.

Jennifer Henderson
Just to quickly follow up and again, I suppose no update then on the level of union engagement in what might be coming down the track, because I think as we've seen in other councils, the unions are obviously an influential factor in the deliverability of some plans, so would be hoping early union engagement happens once they're kind of more certain.

Helena Gray

Yeah, and John might want to come in on the specifics, but I think there has been progress made on the, on the specific recommendation within the BV workforce thematic around staff engagement.
So John might want to come in and say a little bit more about the union component of that and we might come on to it in in discussions later. But there was an update to the policy, I think there will be an update, sorry, to the policy and strategy committee this week, setting out the proposals for a revised staff survey, which is currently being pilot, piloted and plans to roll that out over 2026 and sort of that follow up to the road shows that were undertaken in 2024.
So I think there is a wider update on that on that staff engagement.

John Boyd
Yes, in terms of the union engagement, we’ll be following that up in more detail once we've got the workforce plans to then follow up as part of that action, but we have seen specific circumstances during the course of the year where the council has engaged for the specific workforce planning decisions and has engaged with the union, so the perception is it’s improved.

Jo Armstrong
…move on from transformation unless there’s any other questions, we can move on to performance. Carol?

Carol Evans 45:11
So, thank you, and it's very encouraging to see the good performance versus the benchmarked groups of the council. But I suppose my question is, when you look at, it's got very good performance in the base year, but there appears to be a relatively rapid decline in performance and satisfaction in the last 12 months.
Just really, if I'm reading that correctly and what's causing it and what the council is kind of doing to address that? Just when you look versus the base year.
Albeit it's still overall performing well as a council and I know satisfaction and performance has declined across all councils, but it was just the speed that it seemed to be happening in that one 12-month period was concerning.

Helena Gray 45:57
I think as you said, it is worth putting that decline in satisfaction in the wider context,

which is a, which is a, a declining picture across Scotland in terms of satisfaction indicators so North Lanarkshire is not alone in this trend. And in fact the Local Government Benchmarking Framework report highlighted earlier this year that, and I'll just quote from it because I think it's a useful quote, public expectations have not reduced despite the reduction in local government resources and increased demand due to demographic and other change. These trends relate to satisfaction for the public at large rather than for service users. And again, I think that last bit is really important, it’s a general indicator rather than looking at the specifics of the, of the service users.
But I think, as the Local Government Benchmarking Framework highlights, that this is a, this is a wider challenge across the sector. I think it also points to the importance of active community engagement, to highlight the impact of those growing fiscal demands and workforce pressures on, on local services and to shape local priorities. And you'll have seen elsewhere that auditors have highlighted as part of the budget engagement the need for the council to consider how it continues that conversation and that engagement around the 2026 budget, and I understand that that's something that the council will need to be thinking, and I think that will be crucial in looking at those satisfaction indicators, but generally it is a, it is a period of, a picture of decline across Scotland and I'm not sure I'd be able to point to anything specifically…

Carol Evans
No kind of specific concerns on that one.

Jo Armstrong
Mike.

Mike Neilson 47:52
I was just trying to, I was just looking at the numbers. I had the sense that, notwithstanding the, the basic point about satisfaction, that the other categories of benchmarking framework, North Lanarkshire are doing relatively well, whereas on satisfaction they were actually, there was, sort of, their performance was dragged down, relatively. So I suppose really a small challenge back on whether there might be something real there.

Helena Gray 48:28
I think what we've seen is a really, I think, a really mixed performance across a range of indicators. So I think if you were to look at the council's own 28 health check indicators, that would also show a mixed performance across, across those. And similarly, if you, if you look at exhibit 1 of my report, again, it shows significant declines, I suppose, in that satisfaction indicators. As you say, performance indicators, in the most recent year, it's got 50% in the top 2 quartiles compared to 49% in the, in the base year. So it has sort of improved. Cost indicators is a, is a stable position relatively.
So as with anything with performance, there's a lot of, there's a lot there and it, and it's trying to pull together what is the key, the key indicators or the picture from a lot of indicators and I think my general overarching comment would be it feels fairly mixed at this point, I think, and we can come on to some of the areas. There are areas where actually the council is doing really well. Housing and homelessness, for instance, is an area that we might want to want to talk about.
So there have been some, some real areas of improvement and progress. But there are some, also some areas where things are stickier and slower to make the progress that I think the council would want to see, hence why we'd say it's generally a mixed, mixed performance.

Mike Neilson
I mean, I, I think it's … on, on best practice, on good practice. The, in comparative terms can you say a bit about performance on homelessness, because clearly
they’re… it looks very good. How, how large is their challenge relative to others? And the other area which I did wonder about in terms of whether it’s transformation or performance, but the role it plays in relation to the, in relation to Lanarkshire as a whole, in relation to some health and social care services commissioning. Could you say a bit about how, how unusual that is and whether it represents a sort of good practice that, that might be helpful elsewhere?

Helena Gray
Thanks, and I think I'll bring John in to talk about the specifics of both housing and homelessness and also about the health and social care relationship.
It's not a unique one, the relationship that they have, but again, I'll bring John in to talk about some of his observations in that regard.

John Boyd 51:17
So the housing, housing has been a strategic initiative and priority for the Council and as I mentioned, underpinning the performance has been that investment in housing and social housing.
I think Lanarkshire is the largest social housing provider in Scotland and that is really what drives that performance, that investment, it's essentially paying rewards in terms of their performance indicators that are presented today, in terms of the housing and they’ve seen a real benefit. And that's part, it’s part of the plan for North Lanarkshire, essentially that investment both in housing and in place. So investment in, in town redevelopment and regeneration to, for the wider economy. So, so when we're auditing North Lanarkshire Council, North Lanarkshire Council’s plans and strategies are always outward-facing. So it's about what can be best for the population, working with key, key partners.
And when we look at the performance measures, we'll see the, a lot of the outward-facing performance measures then. So for example housing then, where they’ve prioritised has been areas of, of improvement.
What the council is looking at is embedding and this is where the investment in community hubs is so important. And that's part of the sort of next 5 to 10 years’ plans, to bring together services and integrate services, including health and social care services within key hubs, and that's one of the areas that's been fed back through some of the satisfaction surveys, and they're looking to address through this community investment, essentially providing services locally to the needs of the local population.
Where the council, in terms of some of those performance measures, where the council has faced challenges is as part of the engagement and budget engagement and they do have planned engagement. You’ll have seen in our annual report for the budget, the current year, they didn't do a further consultation exercise, but there are plans to do one for the following year. As part of that engagement, they identify what service user priorities are and that helps inform the council's plans and strategies. But often there can be areas, in terms of some of the satisfaction indicators, that are more local level and not necessarily linked to the priority, so in investing in some of the priorities, it doesn’t necessarily have a direct consequence on satisfaction levels immediately, so there might be a lag in terms of seeing the

uptake of those.
But the council do scrutinise and monitor them to inform the decision making.
In terms of the health and social care, so that community planning is a key, those community hubs. The model in terms of delivery isn’t unique. In terms of sharing best practice, the North Lanarkshire and South Lanarkshire, working with one health board, I think it helps and makes sense in terms of some of that service delivery in terms of having a, essentially a lead council for the, for the delivery of service.
What I don't have is a measure to come, to essentially compare against, to see if an alternative model or a more traditional model of IJB delivery would deliver better outcomes of or not. But what we have seen in terms of the consultation and the IJB’s own strategic planning is there's no intention to move away from that model, which inherently indicates that it's valued and successful.

Angela Leitch 55:30
Can I just pick up on that because that's really interesting. The community model, and I just wonder, to what extent are the community involved in determining the priorities there, because I wasn't quite sure from the report.
And the community investment fund that is mentioned, then, how are projects identified against the priorities for the council? Is there guidance in terms of prioritisation?

John Boyd 56:02
I wouldn't know the, so yeah, I wouldn't know the specific details about guidance about identifying that. I do know part of that community investment plan is, is actually investing in community boards, community planning boards.
To help strengthen and integrate the delivery of community services and that engagement, so the hubs are not only service delivery models, but they seem to be an opportunity for engaging with the community, and as part of those processes, consultation through the initiatives to set those priorities.

Ruth MacLeod 56:42
I just thought it was worth saying that the actual story told around the kind of ambitious housing programme, the capital investment linked to transformation and the community hubs was a really strong kind of story in terms of that ambition that the council has and on quite a significant scale as well, so just thought it was worth

mentioning in terms of performance, that looks like a really interesting story to kind of follow through.
Just sort of moving things on a bit slightly in terms of public reporting and how the council then goes on to talk about its performance and share that more widely with the public, have you got a sense about how the council is going to progress your recommendations around the kind of health check indicators? And how that's going to make that, those indicators more accessible to the public, so that they get a better understanding of how the council's delivering for citizens.

Helena Gray 57:41
Yeah. So I think as we've talked quite a bit already around the council's own approach to reporting and because of those health check indicators and those indicators are obviously reported to committee level which are publicly available, but it's not the most accessible format, so the council does have a dedicated performance section of its website, but that is under redevelopment at the moment to ensure that it captures all of the relevant information in one place, which will include regular updated information on the 28 health check indicators as per our recommendation, and the council has committed to take this forward by June 2026. That's obviously something that we'll come back and look at in due course.

Jo Armstrong
Moving on then, now, to leadership and governance. Andrew.

Andrew Burns 58:33
Yeah thanks, chair. And thanks, Helena and John for the suite of reports we've got before us this morning. Certainly would echo colleagues’ earlier comments that overall this is a really positive report for North Lanarkshire.
Particularly when you consider the high percentage of the most deprived SIMD data zones that they've got within their geography. I think I'm right saying it's over a third and it's very similar to North Ayrshire, actually, which we considered a couple of months ago.
So I think in that cont… within that context as I say, I think it's a broadly positive report.
Invariably I'm going to focus in on a query about a specific area, so those comments made. If I could just ask a query around the leadership review, which is referenced in

your covering report, Helena, paragraphs 8 to 12. And it was good to read that the plan for North Lanarkshire has been refreshed just a couple of years ago in 2023 but one of the recommendations was to involve elected members more in the future sort of reiterations of that programme. And you mentioned, I think it’s in paragraph 12, that that's been taken forward.
I wonder if I could just press for a bit more reassurance about how that's being done and if you’ve got any information about if it's been carefully future-proofed. I'm just conscious that in a matter of a few months, as I'm sure colleagues in North Lanarkshire are aware as well, we've got an election coming up and if 2012, 17, 22 elections are anything go by, there's going to be a quite significant turnover of elected members. So I think it's really crucial that that involvement of elected members isn't just good now, it needs to be good and future-proof going forward when there's a high turnover of elected members.
So any sort of reassurance you can give me about how that's been hopefully embedded into their programme refreshments going forward that I would really welcome.

Helena Gray 1:00:15
Yeah. Thank you. And I, and I should just clarify as well, the leadership review actually that's the BV thematic work on leadership that auditors took a couple of years ago now. And as I said in in my report, the council has updated its guidance to reflect the importance of elected member engagement on council strategic policies and plans, and I’ll, I'll probably bring in John, I suppose, to provide more of an update and maybe also just to share some of his own observations of what he’s observed at the council.

John Boyd 1:00:48
Thanks, thanks Helena. So as the, as the external auditor, as you'd expect, I regularly attend the council, particularly the audit committees, and my personal observations is that the level of scrutiny, challenge and debate is one of the stronger councils that attend. There’s good challenge, both to myself as an auditor, but also to officers which is probably the more important aspect.
There has been a recognition, not only for that engagement as part of the setting of the strategy, but also just incorporating that into the wider governance arrangements, and alluding to your point about future-proofing, the council's

actually in the process of undertaking a governance review, and as part of that, it's looking at the roles and responsibilities of the committees, the elected members and the level of engagement with elected members, particularly in decision making processes. So we should see that then coming out in the coming year, which as you say is ideal timing for, for the future.

Andrew Burns
Thanks very much, John. That's all helpful reassurance. Thanks chair.

Jo Armstrong
Christine.

Christine Lester 1:02:09
Yeah. Thanks, Jo. Thanks, John. It's sort of leading on from what Andrew said. You sort of answered part of what I was asking about, going to ask about, which was, you know, looking back to the leadership review information.
So I have one, only one outstanding question from that and that would be… Paragraph 10 said, which is really when you drew the attention to the council about it improving its engagement with elected members, looking at the strategic planning cohort of what they did.
Has, did they actually go back and look at that process, actually look at their strategic plan with the elected members after that or did that just go through without the, without any further involvement of elected members?

Helena Gray 1:03:00
Thanks. And I'll bring John in. I think it's important to clarify though that the work programme, whilst it was it, it was led by an officer group, it, lead officers did engage all stakeholders, including elected members, as part of the development of the strategic plan. But I think auditors were highlighting that it could have done more to improve its processes for engaging elected members on strategic planning.
So just to, I suppose to be very clear, they were engaged, they just obviously weren't part…

Christine Lester
I’m sure they were!

Helena Gray
…weren't part of that group that, that led on the development of it. But John, do you want to come in and say more?

John Boyd 1:03:43
Yeah, just for some context, as part of that review, we actually engaged directly with elected members, and discussions and feedback from elected members to get their views and perceptions around the engagement. And essentially it was a recommendation of improving going forward rather than retrospect… ultimately elected members now have visibility and essentially approval of the, of the work programme. It was more about the process to arrive at the programme as opposed to concerns that the programme didn't then reflect elected members…. strategic planning… plans.

Christine Lester
Yeah. So, so in essence, you're confident that the strategic plan involved as many elected members as wanted to be involved in it basically?

John Boyd
Yeah, so it was subject to the approval from elected members. What we, what we've highlighted is the process of essentially establishing that work programme could be enhanced through earlier and more effective engagement.

Christine Lester
OK. Thanks.

Jo Armstrong
Malcolm?

Malcolm Bell  1:04:53
Yeah, yeah, thanks, chair. I mean, Andrew and Christine’s questions have kind of largely covered the areas I was, I was interested in. But I mean just specifically, more in terms of support for elected Members in carrying out their scrutiny role I was concerned to see the, you know, really, poor level of attendance, I think to the extent

that the training had to be abandoned. So I just wondered what, what the council are doing to recognise that and to improve for, I guess, future cohorts of members coming in.

Helena Gray
Thanks. I'll bring in John to talk about, I suppose, the learning that the council took from, from as you say, having to cancel some of its training events.
And now how they are sharing learning and development opportunities with elected members.

John Boyd 1:05:40
Yes. So, reflecting some of the attendance challenges, the council's taking quite a practical approach to some of the solutions.
So, the timing of the training events, making it more practical for members to attend. Recording training events so that elected members have the opportunity to essentially catch up on learning.
They also have a number of more informal training, so an example would be sort of budget briefing sessions and actually, I don't have the exact figure but it was over 50 of the elected members I think attended the budget briefings. So there's a lot of informal training then to underpin some of that more formal training.

Jo Armstrong
So we’re coming to the end of our questions, two subjects left, workforce and then some general issues for North Lan specifically. So can I ask colleagues to be mindful of that? And we’re turning to workforce and Malcolm.

Malcolm Bell 1:06:42
I'll be brief on this one, chair.
I was interested in the approach to hybrid working, and I know everyone has got an opinion on that.
I was taken by… I'm interested first of all in the very structured approach, you know, that the council has taken. And I mean my kind of initial thoughts on that were that this is a council doing its best the balance the interests of the organisation and the individuals, so I saw it as a positive, but I was interested that the auditor seemed to suggest that it might, it might be a negative in terms of making the council a less

attractive place to work.
So is there any evidence that it's having an impact on recruitment and retention? I appreciate that we’re due a report I think in January 26, so next month. I just wondered, is there any learning that you're picking up before that comes.

Helena Gray 1:07:45
Yeah, I mean, I think, I think the general point that the auditors were making was, as you've alluded to, hybrid working is something that lots of organisations are still setting their policies and navigating their way through. So in April 2024, the council introduced a permanent hybrid working scheme, which they introduced accompanied by staff engagement and staff surveys, and I think auditors just noted at that point that they hadn't carried out a formal assessment of the impact of its hybrid working practices on a variety of issues, including recruitment and retention, but also wellbeing, service performance, etcetera. And that that was something that they should look to undertake going forward. So I think it was a, it was a more general sort of point around undertaking that assessment.
I understand that the policy and strategy committee will be receiving an update on this next week, which will include information from a staff survey as well. And staff views on whether it has or hasn't had an impact on productivity and work-life balance. So I think that work is, that work is in train.

Jo Armstrong
Ruth.

Ruth MacLeod 1:09:01
Thank you. Yes, I was impressed by the information around staff engagement and the kind of high number of roadshows undertaken in 2024 and more than 2000 staff attending those roadshows.
I just wondered how the council was going to make best use of those kind of connections, and the information that they receive from people attending the roadshows, just to ensure that as well as giving out information about council activities, they’re actually capturing feedback from staff and trade unions, and using that to inform future decision making.
So just, it’s really positive to see so much engagement there, but just how are they going to capture that feedback and use it going forward?

Helena Gray 1:09:49
Yeah, there are a couple of, I suppose, elements of that engagement that are captured in the, in the workforce thematic. So, one of those was a specific survey around hybrid working as well, which we've already talked about, which had a very high response rate.
I think it's also worth noting that the BV thematic highlights that the last staff survey was in 2023 with a very low response rate. As you've already mentioned, there was also a programmed of roadshows over 2024 which was, were attended by over 2000 staff, to engage staff with that strategic vision.
As the report highlights, the council has committed to develop its approach to staff engagement, and again, I understand that that's going to be considered at policy and strategy committee next week, I believe, and they're talking about proposals for a staff survey, which they're currently piloting in a couple of areas, looking at planned roll out for that going forward.
So again, I think auditors will come back and look at this in due course and particularly the extent to which that engagement, as you said, feeds through into that wider point around transparency and decision making. But again, I think at this point it's in progress.

Jo Armstrong
Angela.

Angela Leitch 1:11:11
Thank you. I also note in the workforce plan that there is a focus on employing people from North Lanarkshire … to local people, which is really commendable given the levels of unemployment.
I just wonder if you could say a bit more on how that manifests itself? What particular initiatives are there to address that and how it's been monitored? And I also wonder in terms of the hybrid working, how is that then impacting, or is there a likelihood, will it be evaluated, the impact that that's having on local towns, the local economy, when it's presented to elected members in future?

Helena Gray 1:11:56
Yeah, a couple of things I'd pull out and then I'll, I'll bring in John to see if he’s got
more to add.
So I think in terms of that, that engagement, that employability aspect, I’d highlight the council's programme, which is called the brighter futures programme, I believe, which is their employability service and community learning and development service.
And in terms of the specific council employment, I think the latest figures I have, although I'm sure there are more recent ones available, were that in 2023, around 46 staff were employed through this route into the council and that 86% of staff employed through this route were still in employment six months after job entry. So I think there is that, that wider monitoring and reporting on that.
I think more generally in terms of the council's focus on employment for the wider North Lanarkshire area, I suppose I'd come back to the monitoring that they'll, that they'll be undertaking through their 28 health check indicators and I think there are a number of those that would be relevant around economic activity, positive destinations, wages as well as economic growth. So I think in terms of their wider performance monitoring, those sort of indicators would attempt to catch a range of activity, I think, that would be affecting the employment within that wider area.
John, I didn't know if you’ve got anything further to add.

John Boyd 1:13:25
Really just to add when monitoring, not just the indicators, but when they're actually in discussions around those performance measures, it’s regularly debated, particularly about the impact in terms of the local population’s average salary and indicators like employability, the impact that the council has in terms of employment in those areas. And it's regular, regularly debated and discussed and a key area then of focus for some of the recruitment activity.

Angela Leitch
And in terms of the impact on the local economy of a move to a more formal approach to hybrid working, will that be part of the evaluation that we mentioned earlier?

Helena Gray
Yeah, I'm not sure that we know the answer to that.

Jo Armstrong 1:14:11
Can I make a request, for anybody choosing to write to us through the chat function to stop doing so? It's only Commission members that are allowed to speak in this session, so thank you.
That takes us to the last section, which is kind of council-specific areas of interest. Can I ask Jennifer to lead off on the questioning?

Jennifer Henderson 1:14:30
Yeah, I just, I want to pick up, Helena and John, on the exit packages in your report. So in paras 57 to 59, if folks are wanting to know where I’m referencing. And I just wanted to unpack a little bit about, I guess, how we're confident that they represented an effective use of public money. I completely appreciate, John, your report talks about, and Helena, your report talks about the fact that it was all agreed in line with the council procedures.
But there's just a reference, Helena, in your sort of report about, it wasn't necessarily clear whether alternative options had been considered. It's not clear to me whether the decision to do a restructure factored in the fact that there potentially would be these retirement costs, and how that fed in.
So I'm just looking for clarity about whether we can be confident that, notwithstanding the fact that the discussions with officers suggest that alternatives were considered and wouldn't have been suitable, whether we've really got the evidence we need that this was good, good value for public money.

Helena Gray 1:15:34
Yeah. Thank you. And I think it's important as you have done, to emphasise that the exit packages were made in accordance with the council's policies and procedures. But I think perhaps if I just walk through some of the decision-making points that might, that might be helpful.
So the policy and strategy committee approved the restructure of the Chief Executive service area in September 2024, and that included the removal of the chief officer for business and digital, and the functions of that role then being allocated to three other chief officer roles.

That paper included consideration of the costs of payback and voluntary severance, but it doesn't appear to have considered the potential further implications that may have arisen as a consequence of the changes to the three remaining chief officer roles. I think despite the fact that two of the chief officers affected had applied for early release in August of that period on the basis that their posts would have been affected.
John might want to come in and say more about that, but I think that is then clearly why auditors concluded that from their review of the documentation to support the early retirement decisions, it's unclear how the council considered alternative options to early retirement, such as retraining or redeployment, and it's also unclear how the cost information is considered in demonstrating value for money. Hence why auditors have made the recommendation that while the packages were made in line with council policies and procedures, that there is an opportunity to enhance documentation and supporting evidence.

John Boyd 1:17:17
Just to kind of flesh out some of, some of the points. Essentially the paperwork to support the decision making, while it had areas to consider, and the council had essentially applied it was not applicable, in some aspects, for some of the, the alternative options, we've, we've recommended that they could enhance the level of documentation and paperwork. What we did find was that the council had followed, as Helena said, their policies and procedures. The approvals were all from the, independent from those officers who were in receipt of the exit packages and there was no independence issues with that regard.
But what we suggested, and it's actually been picked up as part of the governance review, is that they would consider, the council should really consider whether decisions that involve chief officers are then taken to elected members for approval rather than the current delegated decision making.

Jennifer Henderson
That's helped my understanding.

Jo Armstrong
Mike.

Mike Neilson 1:18:35
Yeah, there was, effectively, three voluntary severance and two early retirement packages involved. So the value for money issue is quite challenging, I suspect. Shall I pick up on Mears?
Not very much on that.
But it's, Mears has been wound up by the council.
It… Have you been able… Have you looked at whether the cost of doing that, I guess perhaps is a consequence of the earlier problems?

Helena Gray 1:19:20
Thanks. I'll bring John in to talk specifically about the contract management, but I think at this point it is, it would be helpful for me to put on the record a point of clarification in my report in paragraph 61, there is in fact a typo where I refer to a new contract with Amey Public Services LLP for roads and infrastructure maintenance, that contract is actually with Hochtief, not Amey, who were the previous contractor, so apologies for the confusion that I may have caused in that regard.
And with that, I'll bring in John to talk specifically about the work that they've done around the contract.

John Boyd 1:20:00
So there's, there’s essentially two, there was two aspects of our audit work.
The previous contract was a joint venture relationship with the council and Mears. The new procurement contract, after a procure… a long procurement process that actually spanned a number of years, there was only ultimately a single bidder and that was Mears. So the original joint venture was the one that has been wound down or is in the process of legally being wound down and where there was an internal investigation following a whistleblowing allegation.
That is in the process of being wound down and essentially no other services have been commissioned through that. The new contract, as part of our audit work we considered the procurement process that has been followed, which spanned a number of years, and internal audit have undertaken various reviews since 2001, since the inception of the contract, particularly around when it was a single bidder, when it was, when it was realised that there was only a single bidder being able to

provide services, that was subject an internal audit to confirm that it continued to represent value for money for the council. So we've looked at that work.
For the issues that were identified, particularly around contract and performance management under the previous joint venture arrangement, internal audit actually undertook a follow-up review this year, looking at the new contractual arrangement, to make sure that the lessons learned from the previous, from the, from the previous contractual arrangement had been taken forward, and the recommendations had been implemented.
A lot of them were really essentially baked into the contractual agreement as well as the contract management arrangements established at the council.
The, it being a more straightforward third party provider rather than a joint venture allowed that effective contract management.

Jo Armstrong 1:22:22 Any other questions?
Jennifer, Mike, you were the ones that were in this section, are you comfortable with…?
…
Any other questions under this topic anybody wants to pick up?
I certainly think we have reached the end of this public piece of the session. Obviously, we will now consider in private what our response to it's going to be. Can I thank John and Helena for your responses. Can I thank the council for the clear, significant amount of work going on to give us this useful report. And then I look forward to seeing them at some point in the, early in the new year.
So that session, on that basis we’ll end this session and ask members to come back at 11:40. We’ll shut down for a short break.
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Part Two (Improvement Service, policy update and Chair’s update)

Sarah Watters
Yep, good to go.

Jo Armstrong	0:05 OK, excellent, thanks.
OK, good. Welcome back. Item 6 then on our agenda today is the joint working agreement between Audit Scotland and the Improvement Service.
Welcome Blyth and Sarah here, to talk to the paper we’ve got in front of us. Before I go into that I just want to confirm that we did change status of the relationship with Improvement Service last year. But I think as you'll see from this paper that the service at the operational level is very much more aligned and
working, working well, so I'm looking forward to hearing your, your thoughts on the, on the paper. So over to you both.

Blyth Deans 0:46
Thank you, chair. Good morning Commission members. So firstly, delighted to be joined by Sarah Gadsden today, the Chief Executive of the Improvement Service, and together we'll present an update on the collaborative work that's been undertaken between Audit Scotland and Improvement Service over the course of the past year. As, as Jo's just mentioned, over the last year the partnership has, has evolved to focus more on strengthening operational collaboration and that was with the aim of enhancing practical engagement, while also safeguarding the independence of the Commission. So this reflects a decision that was taken in October last year to recalibrate those arrangements, and it's now a joint working agreement rather than a strategic alliance.
So the report that's in front of you today highlights positive progress in joint activities and sets out opportunities for further collaboration in the year ahead. We invite the Commission to reflect on the progress update as well as consider the proposals for continued joint working.
And very briefly, chair, just before I conclude in my introduction, I thought it would be helpful also to inform members that Sarah and I will also be presenting this paper to the Improvement Service Board tomorrow, taking advantage of what feels like rare good fortune in scheduling and timing. But also provide that, a really valuable

opportunity for us to gather comprehensive feedback from another of our key stakeholders as we look ahead to activities planned for 2026. So with that, Sarah and I would be very happy to take feedback and answer any of your questions.

Jo Armstrong 2:06
Great, thanks Blyth and Sarah. I'm going to just take prerogative of the chair just to lead off on the self… self-evaluation framework and it would be really good to get an understanding of where you feel you're at with that, because I do think that's an important part of us letting the sector tell us how good they are and us then use… using their evaluation techniques to minimise or reduce the kind of scrutiny burden with, do it in the right way. And have you got anything of interest that you could share with us on that front.

Sarah Gadsden
Yeah, sure. So the self-evaluation framework is due to be, we're aiming for the end of March for the framework to be available and then the intention is that across the, I suppose the next financial year we’ll undertake some pilots with some local authorities just really to support them to use the self-evaluation framework.
I should stress that our view is very much that our existing self-evaluation framework PSIF, the Public Service Improvement Framework, will be part of the overarching self-evaluation framework, as will the approach to peer collaborative improvement that we're developing.
So I suppose we're on track with the timescales that we had set ourselves.

Jo Armstrong
Thank you. I’ll open up to questions from other Commission members.

Angela Leitch 3:28
On that one, thanks Sarah. And I know how powerful the Public Sector Improvement Framework is, so that's really good to, to know that it's going to be, that new approach will encompass that.
The pilots that you talk about, will you be looking for volunteers to come forward or how will the councils be selected?

Sarah Gadsden
I suppose we're still trying to work that one out, to be honest, because we think there's maybe an opportunity to do a combination because we absolutely recognise the importance of asking councils to self-select because they will absolutely be up for that if they're coming forward to self-select. But again you're also thinking, is there an opportunity, where we know councils maybe aren't as far on with their self-evaluation journey, that we could potentially ask them to participate as well.
So I would imagine it might be a combination of councils self-selecting, us inviting councils to participate, where we think they'll benefit from it, and probably the other thing is looking at a mix of, I guess, larger local authorities and smaller local authorities because we're also very thoughtful of the resources that will be required to deliver the self-evaluation, and I guess what we're picking up is that certainly some local authorities will be better resourced than others.
So we're still to finalise our approach, but that's certainly what we're looking at, at the minute.

Angela Leitch
Just add to that, sorry, Jo, but just on that, before Blyth comes in.
In terms of some of the reports that the Commission has produced, the best value audits in particular. Is that something that might help IS, COSLA and others to think about where the focus might be, and I'm also wondering about some agreement with COSLA in terms of timescale for moving this on, so that we could actually see that, you know, there were definitive milestones where we might see some adoption either of the current framework or the revised one.

Sarah Gadsden
In terms of the, I suppose, the link with COSLA, myself and the Solace lead for this work, Angela Scott, attend the COSLA innovating, developing, and transforming special interest group. So the intention is that ourselves, along with Lesley Brown, who's the project director for Crerar, will be going along to the next meeting of the SIG in January, just to have those discussions and to do a kind of a deep dive on the Crerar project with them.
In terms of the best value reports we've been working with Blyth. So one of the things that we're looking at for one of the pilots for peer collaborative improvement, which will be a key element of the approach to self-evaluation, is looking at the best

value thematic report on workforce and using that to identify where we think there would be a local authority that will benefit from some peer support.

Blyth Deans 6:26
Yeah, I can, I can add to that. Thanks Sarah, that's a really helpful update.
So, you're absolutely right, Angela, the best value work I think will provide a really important pillar of this approach to self-evaluation and how it develops over time. As Sarah’s mentioned, the peer collaborative improvement work is one strand of that also some fairly small scale pilots just about to kick off on in that same regard. So again, focusing on the best value thematic work, working closely with, with Sarah's team who lead on the PSIF side of things. And almost giving us a chance to assess what difference would a really effective self-assessment make to how we deliver that best value work.
So looking at streamlining, efficiency, effectively taking on board the principles of Crerar and how that feeds into the way that we adopt our, I guess the methodology that we adopt for that piece of work.
In terms of how those councils are selected, as I say, it's a very small scale pilot at the moment in that we're focusing on two councils, one who uses PSIF well and one who doesn't use it. So again it gives us a good chance to, I guess, test the temperature as to what difference does that make, and you know, what can we do to provide that support collectively in terms of getting councils into a good place to meet those, the timelines that Sarah already set out.

Jo Armstrong
I've got a number of questions, then, so Mike, Malcolm, Andrew. Andy. You've got your answer. Excellent so thank you for that. Thank you.
So, Andrew, Malcolm…
Malcolm, Andrew. Looking at one and talking to the other!

Malcolm Bell 7:58
Thanks Sarah and… …for the report, it’s really positive. And I think that, you know,
that there’s great strength in working together in trying to drive improvement.
I was looking at Appendix 1 and in particular the second element there which is the course of events for elected members. Really just a comment and I think the proposals for the online webinar sessions is really positive and I would, I would

commend that. I mean that could be really, really valuable and particular, particularly in the years ahead as new councillors come in.
And my second point, really if you could maybe just say a bit more about the potential opportunity to provide support to elected members and audit committees because again, I think that's an area that we're, we’re seeing, you know, through the best value reports, that sometimes could be, it could be strengthened. So I just wonder if you can say a bit more about what that might look like in practice and what they could gain from it…

Blyth Deans 9:02
Thanks, Malcolm. So firstly on the elected member webinars.
This is something that we've… It's been part of the process in previous years and it sort of fell away last year, just on the basis there were quite a lot of other networks that we were engaging with at that point in time, particularly on transformation, given that there was a really strong focus on officer involvement at that point in time. However, we recognise that there's loads of value to be gained from engaging with elected members, particularly on some of the really strong and serious messages that are flowing through from the Commission's work on finances.
So for us it's a really valuable opportunity to engage directly with elected members that we don't necessarily get through the national work. Of course there's that engagement that takes place at a local level, but it gives us a chance to test out some of those messages in what are essentially small breakout groups, and take some of that feedback and then use that to shape how we target our work going forward.
So again, that's something that we're, we’re really keen to, to reinvigorate. And I guess the infrastructure and framework is there and that's a really successful model that we can adopt to take that forward. So, plans are already underway with Sarah's team in terms of setting that up, post-publication of the financial bulletin in January, as well as the budgets output in June.
Now one other thing to mention in that regard, and it does link to your second question, one of the areas that we've tried to enhance the financial bulletin with this year is the inclusion of an elected member checklist. So again this is something that's been produced in previous years. Essentially setting out the questions that we think elected members should be asking of officers based on what the report is telling us.

So we see that as being a valuable tool in terms of improving scrutiny and making sure that officers are able to provide the responses to give members assurances to the situation at a local level and how the national report translates to them.
So I would envisage that being a big part of the direct and targeted training and support, but Sarah will be able to say a bit more in terms of the Improvement Service role in that.

Sarah Gadsden 10:54
Yeah, and I suppose the other thing to add to what Blyth is saying is that we're working with the Open University to develop a local councillor training academy.
So that will go live next year. So the intention is that that will have a range of resources on it as well that elected members can, I suppose tap into as and when it’s convenient for them. And we'll also be commencing work next year on the induction materials.
So nearly every local authority has their own induction programme in place, but we'll be producing national materials that all 32 can tap into. And again, we'll make sure that we're building within those elements on scrutiny and so forth as well.

Malcolm Bell
Say on the checklist, from a, from a personal point of view, I found it really helpful… So I’m glad that will make a comeback.

Jo Armstrong
Andrew.

Andrew Burns 11:48
Thanks, Jo. Thanks, Sarah and Blyth for the report, it's very helpful to see the update on the working arrangements. You can tell this isn’t rehearsed, I was going to ask around the same area as Malcolm, probably not surprising given our backgrounds. It was just on the checklist. I used to hate them when I was in power and loved them when I was in opposition!
But joking aside, I mean they really were useful and I think, just to reinforce, and I think you've probably answered what I was going to ask about in response to Malcolm, but the fact you've mentioned just the Sarah the training academy and the national induction materials, I mean I recall particularly the national materials being

really, really useful as a new councillor way back, and I'm assuming that these will all be ready for the run up to May 27, because it came up in the North Lanarkshire discussion earlier in this morning's agenda, there will be a big turnover, and a big cohort of new councillors in, sort of, May/June 27. So it'd be good just to hear that's definitely on, in train for 18 months’ time.
And also, I mean I think, personally and essentially in your response to Malcolm
you’re agreeing with this, I don't think they, they’re contradictory or opposite to any localised training that might be given at a local authority level. I think they can be entirely complementary and like Malcolm from my personal experience as an elected member in the past, I always found that type of central support good in addition to any localised support at a council level which, you know, can be specific to a local area and it was good just to get a national perspective. So I would really encourage that development of those programmes in good time for not just commencing next year, but in the run up to the May 27 elections.
But it sounds like it's all in hand. But any reassurance on that would be helpful. Thanks.

Sarah Gadsden 13:31
No, I can confirm everything’s in hand, and we're also working with all the leads within local authorities that have got responsibility for member development, and I guess just the other thing to flag is that we are also doing work on, for candidates to in effect… So we've got training materials out there and information, advice on what it's like to be an elected member and then we have a Be a Councillor website. So again, we’ll be launching that next year, so and what the feedback we've had from previous years is that people thinking of standing for election found it really helpful because we include videos from current elected members and so on as well. So it gives them a sense of the role.

Blyth Deans 14:11
If I can also just offer a follow-up on, on Andrew's point about the elected member checklist. So the Commission will see that in January, when the draft report comes along, working with sponsors in the development of that at the moment.
There is also potentially a link there in terms of that approach to self-assessment, that it gives the councils some materials, you know, maybe to base some activity in terms of well let’s actually take a step back and think what are the answers to these

questions, and how can we capture that in a way that helps drive improvement at that local level. There’s then also a consideration for the Commission as to how can we gather that, is there something we can do with local auditors to perhaps bring that back to the Commission at a point in time where we can carry out that assessment? So I think it has loads of potential which, you know, it's not just a singular purpose of giving elected members a question to ask, it, you know, it really could drive some, some meaningful change.

Andrew Burns
That's all good to hear. Thanks.

Jo Armstrong
Andy.

Andrew Cowie 14:57
Just going back to self-assessment.
I don't think any of us underestimate just how much work that is, persuading people
… There'll be some early adopters … to add, and there'll be some laggards, for want of a better word, that are not probably convinced that it's worth the effort.
What would you candidly say to us as a Commission as to what we can do now to reinforce that A, the Commission is absolutely behind self-assessment and self-evaluation, and B, to encourage the laggards, that this is not going to go away? And it's, you know, one of the things we often do is comment on praising self-evaluation when we see it in a best value report. Is there anything else at this time you think that we could do as a Commission to just give more power to the, to your elbow?

Sarah Gadsden 15:50
I think, I suppose I think, from our perspective, again, it would be helpful if there was, and I don't know how this would be done if there was some kind of statement recognising the role of self-evaluation, because I guess our aspiration of the work we did in Crerar was, I suppose, a recognition that self-evaluation should be the starting point of any audit and scrutiny activity. So I think anything that you could do along those lines to, I guess, commit to that, to recognise it, I think would absolutely help us.

I mean the example I use is that when I was involved in self-evaluation, way back, and I always remember when the best value 2 guidance came out. And it said, you know there was an expectation that local authorities would undertake self-evaluation as part of best value 2. Our phone became like a hotline! And everybody wanted to sign up to the Public Service Improvement Framework.
So I think anything you can do to reinforce the messaging around about the importance, that it will be taken into account as part of audit activity, it will be the starting point, I think would be a huge help to us.
But absolutely recognise that it's a, I suppose, it's a cultural issue as well, and I guess what we try and get across is that, you know, you shouldn't just be doing this because somebody's telling you, you should be doing it. You should be doing this because we want that sector-led improvement approach and that continuous improvement culture.

Andrew Cowie
Sometimes you can’t change attitudes but you can change behaviour.

Blyth Deans 17:20
I think there’s also something, Andy, about the carrot in terms of, what does it mean, what difference is it actually going to make? And I think there is a recognition within the sector of the, for the scrutiny bodies to take a step back, then councils need to take a step forward. So achieving that consistency, that rigour, that gives us the assurance that actually, you know, we can rely on it. I think at the moment there is probably a fairly mixed picture in terms of effectiveness of self-evaluation and hence the project.
So it feels like that, that's a really fundamental part of the kind of next steps. What I can also give members an update on is the Strategic Public Sector Scrutiny Network has taken a couple of papers now from Lesley Brown, Alistair, who are leading the work on behalf of Improvement Service and Solace. And again, that's bringing scrutiny bodies to the table in terms of, what does this mean in practice, what do we need to see before this becomes a consistent part of the audit and scrutiny process?
So again, the right conversations are happening, there feels like a really natural convergence of lots of different work streams, and the self-evaluation stuff feels like

it's pulling that together. So, I say there’s positive progress so far, but I think like, that there's still more to come obviously.

Andrew Cowie 18:30
So just from a strategic perspective, which is what the Commission's role is, compared to Audit Scotland, the operational aspect, then – and hopefully I'm not talking out of turn here, other members will tell me if I am – is that it would be more than appropriate for you, the project team, Blyth, to come back to us and say it would be really helpful if… and to making some suggestions around that. We'll obviously look at opportunities, but if there's a particular ask that you want from a strategic level then I think that would play to our strengths, wouldn't it?

Jo Armstrong
That's fair, Andy, is that we, we are not operational, we're strategic. But if you come with an operational ask we can then give it serious consideration.
Mike.

Mike Neilson 19:13
And, just in passing, if the model that we’re, that we use, should have evaluation as… self-evaluation as one of the building blocks, its absence should have consequences too, in a way.
I was going to move to a different point, which is the, a different question which is the work you've done on data returns, as a register. It's obviously useful for people to refer to.
What are the aspirations in terms of actually achieving reduction in, reduction and coherence in terms of the data returns you're getting? I guess it links in partly into the scrutiny network, but also to Scottish Government’s requirements.

Sarah Gadsden 20:04
So just on, on that point. There is a, COSLA and Scottish Government are setting up a group to look at the lifecycle of data return reporting, with a view to looking at how we could rationalise the data returns that are currently provided by local government.
So that group hasn't yet met, it will be meeting shortly. And what we'll be looking at within that is identifying a couple of pilot areas just to see, I suppose just to review

what data is currently being gathered, how's it being used by Scottish Government, how’s it being used by local authorities, and is there still a need to gather that particular data?
And I guess our long term aspiration would be that there would be some kind of mechanism in place whereby if Scottish Government wished a new piece of data to be gathered, it comes into, I suppose, a vehicle where, with local government on it, whereby it's discussed as to do we need this additional piece of data? And there's very good arrangements in place between the Local Government Association down in England and the UK Government, which we’re learning from and we've had colleagues up from the LGA to talk to us about their approach.

Blyth Deans 21:18
So just as a very local example of that. This project and piece of work has prompted, along with other things, the Audit Scotland team to engage with officers from the Scottish Government in terms of the specifics of the data return requests that we make and that they make in terms of, you know, recognising that there is a natural overlap there.
The timing doesn't quite marry up perfectly, but there are opportunities for us to get a bit better with that in terms of streamlining that ask. Our return is now included on the online data return register, so again, it just raises that awareness as to, this is what we're collecting. Obviously Mike, you know the, the rather painful process that the data return can be for us to gather some of that information, but if we can use that in a way that also makes it accessible for the Scottish Government and for the sector itself, then it feels like it's effort worth making.
So I think just in terms of visibility and awareness, it's been a big step forward. We plan to have more conversations with colleagues from the Scottish Government as well, just in terms of how we can really nail that down and make sure that there's no duplication of effort where it's not recorded.

[Interruption]

Nichola Brown 22:40
I was also focusing on Appendix 1 and would really welcome the summary of all the work that's been achieved.
But I was really interested to ask if there's a little bit more information around the

public sector reform agenda and the bullet point around engagement of CPPs?
On their role in public service reform, I'm just interested in what that might entail in the new year.

Blyth Deans 23:13
So from my point of view on that one, I think it's a, it’s a starting point for us to have a conversation together in terms of establishing a baseline upon which to build next steps. So the Commission has obviously expressed an interest in a roundtable on, on CPPs. So it feels like in terms of informing where we start with that session, engagement together with Improvement Service is only going to enhance the, the knowledge that we have.
I think there's a risk that we have a roundtable on CPPs that highlights the same issues that have been highlighted in the past. So actually if there's a maybe a bit more strategic thought around how we can target our questions or target the methodology in a way that actually generates something different, the Commission can then gather meaningful evidence to, you know, produce an output at the end of it. I think that would be, that would be one way to take forward.
There's also work that’s referenced in the paper on the strategic public sector scrutiny network’s subgroup – try and come up with an acronym for that!
On tests of change, so that test of change work is looking at bringing together scrutiny bodies and carrying out our work in a different way. So working collaboratively on potentially a, a place based approach. Now there's a pilot underway at the moment, but there's also potential for us to extend that if it's successful into the territory of CPPs, again bringing together the different scrutiny bodies with the different areas of interest.
So it's something that we've got a kind of watching brief on at the moment. But as I say, Nichola, it's very much a starting point just in terms of making sure we're as well informed, and Improvement Service will have lots of good information from the national self-assessment on community planning, for example, that we can tap into as well.
So yeah, lots of material that's there and you know it's a fairly short bullet point but there's probably quite a lot of work involved in that one.

Nichola Brown
Really helpful. Thank you.

Jo Armstrong 24:55
Any other questions, here or…? Again I’m going to take prerogative around areas of collaboration.
The areas that I’m not clear who picks up the responsibility or supports the sector, is around finance and financial capabilities and financial capacity. Given the serious financial challenges facing the sector and the desire to do effective planning, effective budgeting, effective management of their audit processes. Is that something that sits in this space or is somebody else responsible for that, Sarah?

Sarah Gadsden 25:30
Yeah, I mean my, so, I suppose, our improvement work focuses in areas where there's no other natural body to take forward that improvement work in local government.
And I guess, I suppose we’re, we're not in that space because my understanding is that that's absolutely the space of CIPFA and directors of finance.

Jo Armstrong 25:49
Well, I'm going to flag up that the Commission is interested in understanding how peer collaborative works around financial supports and if it's not Improvement Service then is CIPFA doing what it needs to do? Are the DoFs doing what they need to do in trying to help them help the sector? Because I do think that's something that's not going to get less, it’s going to get more, in the coming period.

Sarah Gadsden
We've certainly, in terms of our peer collaborative improvement approach, there's a methodology there. We would be absolutely happy to share and have a discussion with colleagues. The expertise resides with them!

Jo Armstrong 25:49 Yes, no, no, I get that.

Angela Leitch
It's on a different point, so…

Jo Armstrong
Anything else on finance before I move to Angela?

Derek Yule 26:30
Can I maybe just come in? I suppose my thought from what you're saying is, it's how performance links with the finances, because to me there's something you know, what councils are doing to understand how well they're performing.
And that doesn't just necessarily manifest in finance, but it is, because where some councils are doing something better in performance. It can be service output, but it can also be lower cost, or doing more for the same or, so I suppose that's the link in my mind to the point you’re making, Jo.
I'm not sure it is. There's a bit of, how finance services are linking in with the work of the Improvement… PSF, to get that link between the cost of service and the service outputs, outcomes. So that's probably the bit I think in my experience is probably lacking.

Jo Armstrong
That best put than I did, Derek. Thank you. That's a very helpful kind of clarification. Angela.

Angela Leitch 27:32
So just on another issue, Sarah, in particular.
I'm interested, quite a few of the councillors, councils are now putting forward their budget proposals for, for next year albeit that they’ll revise those as the Scottish budget hasn’t been set. But there's a few of them that are referring to reductions in non-statutory services.
I just wonder how that work that you're doing with Solace is progressing in that, that respect?

Sarah Gadsden 28:03 Sure, thanks, Angela.
So what we've been doing is trying to collate a, I guess, a standard definition of what all the statutory services are. So we've been focusing on the statutory services.
I naively thought there was, there would be a list, but there isn't!

So we've been working with councils to try and pull that together. And we are in the process of developing a portal so that will go live hopefully end of January, February time, where all the statutory duties, as far as we can agree with local authorities, will be listed on that.
And then within that, we're also identifying where there's transformation work already underway in relation to those statutory duties. The intention is then to work with the professional associations, so we can start really delving into those statutory duties to say, you know, where are the pain points, is the legislation still fit for purpose?
So as a brief example, we took something non-controversial for our, I suppose, our first change proposition, and that's the legislation in relation to the publication of public information notices in the local media.
So through information we gathered from local authorities, we estimated we're spending in the region of £1.5 to £2 million per year on those local notices. We have a digital platform, Tell Me Scotland, where all the notices can be published digitally. So our proposition to the Solace branch was, is there an appetite to explore with Scottish Government potential changes in legislation? So we're now having those discussions with the Scottish Government.
And again, we've now got the technology where we can verify people's identity online through the, the national entitlement card. So we could do that for the registration of births and marriages. But we can't do that because the legislation won't allow us.
So what we're aiming to do is use that statutory duties analysis to really start then working with colleagues in local authorities to say, OK, what's the legislation getting in the way of, where do we need change, and how do we redesign services within the confines of that?

Angela Leitch
That sounds good.

Sarah Watters 30:20
Just very quickly, I mean, we've got some legislation relating to what we have to do, publish in a newspaper circulating in the local area. So actually if there's anything that we can do as part of that work to encourage Scottish Government to say,

actually that seems a bit archaic now, it would be great if we could review some of that local government legislate… Local Government Act 73, that would be great.

Angela Leitch 30:42 Very final point, sorry.
It's, it’s more that a lot of the non-statutory services will be the preventative spend that councils will be engaging in, that will actually support communities and citizens much further down the line. So I'm just thinking, as we do that, a really valuable piece of work, but we do need to think about the areas that if we cut back too much, it will cost more on the statutory side in the longer run.
It's a balance.

Jo Armstrong
Right, one more, Mike, and then moving on.

Mike Neilson 31:14
The… it's all about improving the sort of coherence of the, the regulatory framework
… framework and a lot about supporting individual local authorities in self-evaluation.
How much have you, of your sort of activity is devoted to identifying the areas where local authorities can collaborate effectively together?
We saw an example there in North Lanarkshire where one local authority is leading around health and social care commissioning.
How, how significant a role can you play in that area?

Sarah Gadsden 31:57
I think that, I suppose a lot of our work involves supporting collaboration. So for all the areas that we're involved in, we bring together peer networks and actively encourage local authorities to share practice, learning and identify new opportunities to work together.
But specifically as part of the work we're doing with Solace on the transformation programme, we’ve got a project on collaborative procurement. So that's actively looking at opportunities for local authorities to collaborate on procurement, round about waste, fleet and digital.
We've also just recently kicking off a kind of project on shared services. We, you

hopefully will have seen a report being published, looking at the collaborative arrangements in place currently amongst local authorities. So that will be building on that in terms of where there are potential opportunities. And again, tying in with the work of the Invest to Save councils, so making sure we're linking in with the work that Falkirk and Clackmannanshire are doing.
So I would say, you know, we're at the, I suppose at the heart working with Solace sort of trying to help local authorities identify those opportunities where they can genuinely collaborate, and recognising that will take different shapes or forms, so some of it might be local collaboration, some of it might be regional.
And I guess our role in relation to digital is where can we develop a, I suppose develop and deliver a service once for the sector. So you look at the example of that with the national visitor levy platform that we've been working with the early adopter councils to develop that platform that other councils can then use.

Blyth Deans 33:30
Can I just offer one quick example as well that that might illustrate that in terms of Audit Scotland's involvement and ultimately, by extension, the Commission as well? So it's been mentioned a couple of times, the peer collaborative improvement pilot that's underway. So essentially that work is based on the local work that's carried out across the 32 councils.
As part of that, working with the Improvement Service identifying where the areas of strong practice is and identifying other councils where they could be doing with some help essentially.
So in the situation we've got at the moment based on the workforce innovation thematic, we identified a council where there was a recommendation made within the local thematic work on the need to carry out a skills audit, and carry out a bit of an assessment in terms of what that skills gap that existed at that point in time means for delivery plans going forward.
So through the work that had been carried out, we were able to identify 3 or 4 councils who had done that thing particularly well. So the council who hadn't done it is a host, so they host the activity, so they bring together their peers and essentially have a session that is solutions focused, to come up with some actions that they can then take forward to, hopefully, drive that improvement in that one particular area.
So although that is quite a small scale example, we hope that that will help demonstrate the value in having that breadth of knowledge and intelligence across

the country, to target those hotspots that exist where we know that some councils are in, you know, in need of a bit of assistance. So the work that Sarah and her team do in, in terms of driving that forward is, is crucial and we can really support that with the evidence that we gathered through the best value process.

Jo Armstrong 35:03
I’m conscious that you could be asking lots and lots more questions but we have run out of time. But I do appreciate you coming along.
And I wish you luck, well not luck – I look forward to hearing the outcome of the conversation at the IS board tomorrow because I think you can give them assurance that we are really supportive of what, what's going on here.
And really supportive of self-evaluation work, which I think, came to the Commission a couple of months ago and I'm glad to see it's still moving forward in the timescale that we'd hoped.
So thank you very much.

Sarah Gadsden
Thank you.

Jo Armstrong 35:39
To item 7, which is the local government policy update. Joe.

Joe Chapman 35:48 Thanks Jo.
A couple of things to update on, if I can find my notes.
One is around the visitor levy, so it's not captured in the report, but of course the Scottish Government has announced that they will look to legislate early in the new year to provide councils with more flexibility in the design of the visitor levy, including a flat rate as an alternative to a percentage, giving councils that choice.
And also varying the level of the levy within the council area for different types of accommodation, different times of year, etcetera. So a lot more flexibility being offered there.
Of course those who have already set out to implement or agreed to implement the visitor levy will need to obviously consider how they incorporate the changes to legislation in the fullness of time.

So something again, I'll keep an eye on, but I think that that's, albeit perhaps, better late than ever, to, to amend the way that the visitor levy legislation is set up, giving councils the increased flexibility seemed to be an interesting and positive development.
The one other thing I wanted to update members on is actually that the policy update reports or an amended version of them are now being shared with stakeholders in local government. So we're sharing with Solace, with COSLA, with director of finance, with the Improvement Service and with the LGBF board. Taking out sections around the, you know, media coverage of Commission reports, and mentions of the Commission, but otherwise putting, putting out the same substantive content, as we think that that's quite a useful sort of collation of information on relevant issues. To them and we've had, we've had a very positive response to that already and actually one or two queries coming in on things, you know, suggestions for things to cover.
One in particular was around looking at the Auditor General’s recent report on taxes, and looking at how that has implications for local government, directly or indirectly. So that's something I'll look at for the next update as well and of course might come up in the discussion with the Auditor General in the private session later on.
So just a couple of updates from me. Happy to take any questions as ever.

Jo Armstrong
Again Joe, a real tour de force, thank you for that. Questions for Joe? Angela.

Angela Leitch 38:11
So more a comment than anything, but again there is a stack in the, here, Joe, it’s a really, really good report, so. Thank you, it's everything that’s going on in local government at a glance. Useful.
It was more a comment on the education one, and the proposal to reduce contact time to support teachers’ workload, or them addressing their workload. And I just wonder if in our deliberations in the future we might think about looking at what options are looked at in, you know, in addition to doing more of the same and taking the very skill set that we need in the classroom to impart knowledge and learning.
Whether there are other options that are looked up, particularly looking at

international comparisons.
So it's maybe something that we just keep on our radar.

Jo Armstrong
I agree and I think it's something we probably will pick up in our…

Alison Cumming
It will feed into the scoping, for school education, either for this piece or for a future piece of work.

Jo Armstrong
Christine. Sorry, Carol, then Christine.

Carol Evans 39:21
So I echo what Angela says. I always find this very useful and, and one of the reads I actually quite look forward to reading. Which does sound a bit nerdy but never mind! The one I was going to ask about was in paragraph 7, it says Aberdeen Council is cutting educational related services, including additional support for learning. And considering we had our report earlier this year on the fact that that is so crucial and it's underfunded already, have you seen any reaction to that? You know, what's their, what's their rationale for what seems like a very gung ho approach to something that's already in the public domain and would seem a counter-intuitive thing to do?

Joe Chapman 40:03
I think it's worth clarifying perhaps that's one of a wide, particularly wide range in Aberdeen's case, of options that they have put out to consultation and that consultation is kind of designed to gauge the public mood about what priorities are. And I'm fairly certain they're not the only ones to make proposals for cuts to sort of auxiliary education services, you know, secondary sort of support services around education as opposed to those which they're statutorily required to, to provide.
So yes, it's a long way, I think, from putting those proposals in place. But of course, as with any council, they're looking at, you know, a budget gap if they don't take any action. And, you know, having to, to consider some difficult options, in education and other areas.

So yeah, just a case of setting out, these are some options that we're looking at, these are perhaps the kind of level of, of saving they might make, contribution to cutting the budget, you know, filling the budget gap they might make.
So yes, obviously a lot to still happen on that case in terms of what comes out of the consultation, implications from the Scottish budget when it's announced, and then ultimately the, the budget setting process when it comes in the new year.

Carol Evans
Because Aberdeen are one of the better councils actually for providing additional support for learning, and one that you would actually almost hold up as an exemplar. So to hear they’re cutting it was really quite… the potential, you said, it’s a long way off, was quite kind of concerning.

Jo Armstrong
Christine, Mike, Derek, Nichola.

Christine Lester  41:40
Yeah. Thanks, Jo, and thanks, Joe. Joe that, I like, like Carol, I very much look forward to, to, to reading this and updating myself as to what's been going on.
Can I just ask for some clarification, paragraph 9, you mention the UK Government's pride in place programme and the local growth fund, is that the direct funding that's coming from Westminster to Scotland to councils directly, is that, that, is that what you're referring to?

Joe Chapman
Yes, that's what that refers to, yeah.

Christine Lester
OK, so I'm just, because of changes to how funding is allocated, Glasgow is going to receive less funding. So that's a Westminster decision as to how it's being allocated, yeah?

Joe Chapman  42:27
Yes. So compared to the previous government's shared prosperity fund, the factors

and the, and the formulae that the current government are using to allocate the same overall level of funding for Scotland…

Christine Lester
Yeah, yeah.

Joe Chapman
…between different councils, they’re changing the way that you know the factors and the kind of weighting that they're giving to different factors…

Christine Lester
OK.

Joe Chapman
…and as we, as we, as we see with, with discussion around the funding formula for councils, there's going to be winners and losers from that. And the revelation was that the Glasgow region would be one that suffers as a result of that, potentially.

Christine Lester
Yeah. And the turnout of that is that if as a council you thought you were getting X through the previous Westminster government, that's no longer true because the, the formula's changed. So the amount being allocated to you would be different, increased or decreased. Thank you very much.

Jo Armstrong
Mike.

Mike Neilson 43:22
Not, given the time, not for, not for detailed response now, but the stuff from Public Health Scotland about the waiting lists.
Is only part of picture and what's for me is very interesting is how far that reflects increased demands flowing in and out via its…
And how quickly, how quickly the local authorities, how they’re being processed, I mean, it's fairly fundamental to that relationship between finance and performance.

But this growing thing could be masking good performance by local authorities in dealing with more, or otherwise. So it would be interesting to get that stuff in future.

Joe Chapman
I think that kind of issue is, is to some extent addressed in some of the audit work we've done. So looking at the IJB finance and performance work and also obviously then has that, that impact in terms of delayed discharges. So I think something that is very much a focus of attention for the Commission and the Auditor general across that kind of whole system perspective.

Mike Neilson
Maybe it's more a question for Public Health Scotland in the way they present the numbers without giving the underlying picture as well.

Jo Armstrong
Derek.

Derek Yule 44:48
Thanks, chair. I was just going to, by really to Carol's point. I sense this, I think, I think it's an area we can pick up to some degree in the overview report and in the budget work later in the year.
Blyth will keep me right in this, but I think, we were speaking about this yesterday. I think the report as drafted, it's coming in January, does talk about the percentage or proportion of directed spend.
So I think what you're getting into the areas that are not directed by Scottish Government policy, and the difficulty of councils balancing their budgets, and I think the report makes specific reference to health and social care where councils weren't allowed to reduce the, the cash sum that was going there.
And teacher numbers is the other big area obviously, and it's, it is particularly challenging and I think that takes in the prevention… So I think there's scope for us to maybe without commenting directly on policy, but we can talk about the implications, I think there's probably two opportunities next year that we can pick up on that issue.

Jo Armstrong
Nichola, then Ruth.

Nichola Brown
I’d also homed in on paragraph 7 around the, the councils’ budgets.
And really welcome the, the sentence where our briefing in 2026 will include analysis of the consultation and engagement activities. The examples that are listed, I took the opportunity to delve into looking at a bit of a comparison of those and, and they do vary wildly, which is unsurprising, but there are some really good examples of, you know, accessible, meaningful consultation with the public on budget setting, and the dilemmas and priorities, North Ayrshire stands out.
Whereas I know that there are others beyond this list where there is, there is more of a blunt instrument. So I think it would be really good if we are commenting on that within our overview report.
The other thing just very briefly, is Jo, I’m amazed at how many links you manage to get into these reports!
But I particularly enjoyed reading the LGIU link into, it's beyond the bins, local government must rebrand for Gen Z, which is really about how to attract a younger workforce into public sector local authority jobs. And given how much time we spend on thinking about workforce planning and the ways in which that can be done, I'd just recommend that as a really interesting read about what motivates that Gen Z, and also about how local authorities can better promote the breadth of opportunities that there are in public sector. Thank you.

Jo Armstrong
And Ruth.

Ruth MacLeod 47:51
Actually, my point was the one that Nichola raised. It was really about item 7 as well, just found that that was such a useful list to see, and I feel that the language is really changing, getting much more explicit about the challenges that councils are facing and also the kind of changes to services that people might lose out on in the future. And I just kind of wondered how, how we kind of monitor and keep an eye on that in terms of anything that might need to do in terms of further assurance about, you know, how these proposals are kind of manifesting themselves further down the line.

Because there are some very stark choices being laid out here, and it's just how, how are we keeping a kind of track of what's coming up there because they might become public issues quite quickly for us.
And, yeah, it's just, it's very interesting to see. I think the language is getting much more intentional about things changing and fair funding and all these other issues. So just very helpful to see it.

Joe Chapman 48:55
Just want to reiterate in general that list is obviously not exhaustive and I hope I haven’t … the team in terms of the budget briefing, but obviously previous budget briefings have looked at, you know, the depth and the type of consultation and engagement exercise. I don't know how much we'll be able to look at, sort of, how that has then fed into budget decisions. We can look at one, look at the other, but the connection might be more difficult to draw.
But yeah, I just wanted to reiterate that point that, not picking on councils or anything like that, it's, it’s just a half a dozen or so that I came across within the last couple of weeks.

Jo Armstrong 49:31
You know, cause and effect, really, really difficult to assign, so difficult to be able to … to that effect, but I think it's clearly signalling as you say Joe, the kind of intent has been made clearer so that consultation exercises are becoming more pointed, that will engage people in a different way hopefully.
The outcome of that, well, we will see. I'm not, I'm not sure quite how it will feed through into budgeting, but hopefully it is informing the budgeting process.
Conscious again of time. If there are no other questions I’ll say thanks, again, Joe, for a really helpful report.
Glad to see others outside of the Commission also value it too, which is good. Moving quickly then on to chair’s update. I'm happy to take questions, but I think most of the issues are relatively about my diary rather than the…
I’ll see if you have any questions on it.
I, Andrew and I did set ourselves aside to be interviewed by LGIU, and we did get interviewed and then something happened with the recording, so I'm not quite sure, I think it's going to be a joint output. It's going to be a bit of a recording and a bit of a narrative piece to the LGIU website. So it was useful, but it was more about, how

better are we than England or Wales? No we're not, we're just different, at least try and explain the differences.
I did go to the Ethical Standards Commission webinar, which was a useful one on understanding what, what issues and concerns they may or may not have about public appointments. And the interesting thing for me was that if we are involved in a recruitment process which clearly we are, we can actually drive more of it than perhaps we thought we could have, so that was a good outcome from that.
Then the letter that I sent to Deloitte’s did trigger a discussion. They, Deloitte’s wanted to have a session explaining what their approach has been to the, their inputs and their restructuring of their teams around the various audits, which was a constructive discussion.
And one hopes it will create the right dynamic to push some of these audits forward to the timescale that is what we want. But I'm happy to take any other questions you might have, or anything else on that list.
Thank you. That takes us then to Controller of Audit’s update, Helena.

Sarah Watters
No, that's lunch.

Jo Armstrong
That's lunch. We're at lunch. We're at end of, any other public sector, public session business.
Anybody got anything else they want to raise? On that basis, we can stop the recording.

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