Accounts Commission August 2026 public session

Jo Armstrong   0:02
…Accounts Commission, which is being held in Glasgow.
The public session of the meeting is, as always, being recorded, and the recording will be made available via the Commission's website …
…got their microphones off? Good. 
Public session of the meeting is being recorded and the recording will be made available via the Commission's website as soon as possible. There are members of the public in here today. There's very few people that genuinely tend to come, so welcome. And you're more than welcome to be participating in today's session by watching.
I'd particularly like to acknowledge if there are representatives of Glasgow City Council watching online. And, as I know there are other council business taking place today, they're not actually in the room today.
If anyone experiences any technical issues, please contact our support colleagues separately via Teams or by e-mail to the address given in the calendar invite.
Commission members, please keep your camera on throughout the meeting, but keep your microphones on mute. For others participating in the meeting, please keep your camera off, microphone on mute, except when it's your item. 
And can I make the usual plea for us to speak clearly and loudly, please, throughout the meeting for the benefit of those in the room and elsewhere. Make sure it's easiest for the transcription and for people who have got maybe some slight hearing challenges. 
So item one of today's agenda is apologies for absence. Sarah?

Sarah Watters  1:33
No apologies today.

Jo Armstrong  1:35
Good. Item 2, declarations of connection.
I would like declare a connection in relation to the Glasgow Best Value report at items 5 and 11. As chair of the Wheatley Group until the end of September, I have a connection to the council throughout the… through the City Building joint venture. Given this connection, it was agreed that Andrew will step in to chair the session - Andrew is the Deputy Chair - and recusing myself from the discussions, any conclusions and decisions made by the Commission and any media in relation to the report. 
Can I ask other members who have connections or interest regarding any item on today's agenda, please state their connection and whether they consider it material enough to recuse themselves? Jennifer.

Jennifer Henderson  
I've got a connection to item 13, the Code of Audit Practice supplementary guidance as a chief exec of a public body that is subject to that guidance when it comes in, but I've taken advice and don't need to recuse myself. 

Malcolm Bell  
Similarly, item 13 as a member of a body that's audited by Audit Scotland. 

Carol Evans  
I'm a non-executive director of bodies that are audited by Audit Scotland.

Angela Leitch  
Two declarations. Firstly, I'm a member, item 13, I'm a member of a body audited by Audit Scotland. And the best value audit of Glasgow, I have a connection with the previous chief executive, but on neither do I have to recuse myself.

Jo Armstrong  
Nichola. 

Nichola Brown  
Similarly, sorry, as to others for item 13, I’m a member of a body audited by Audit Scotland.

Jo Armstrong  3:17
That takes us to item 3 order of business. As normal, I'd like the Commission's approval for the order of business today. I propose items 10 to 15 are considered in private for the reasons set out in the agenda. As an exception in the interests of time today, item 13, the supplementary guidance for the Code of Audit Practice. It has already been addressed via correspondence ahead of this meeting and members agreed to endorse the guidance for presentation to the Board. Therefore, I propose that we need to consider… we do not need to consider that item today. Are members agreed on both those issues?
Item 4 matters arising from the previous meeting. Sorry, minutes and matters arising from the previous meeting. Sarah. 

Sarah Watters  4:00
Yes, so there were two actions coming from the last meeting. The first was that the brochure that was produced for MSPs on public audit in Scotland was circulated to members after the meeting and the leaflet has also been adapted for use, just for general information to the general public on public audit in Scotland and it's been included as part of the recruitment materials. 
And the other action was in relation to the Controller of Audit updating Commission members on audit delivery. The next time that will happen is next month in September and then November. So we've marked those in the agenda planner so you know when those are coming.
And just, I suppose, one more note is that we did take, we did produce a note of the private session with Clackmannanshire Council and that has been published, it was agreed with the council and it has been published alongside the formal minute of the last meeting.
Happy to take any questions on the minute.

Jo Armstrong  4:58
Members content with the minute?
That’s approved.
Well that takes us to best value Glasgow City Council, paper for which I will now be recusing myself, so I’ll hand over to Andrew. 

Andrew Burns  5:14
Thanks very much, Jo, and as colleagues know, item 5 is a statutory report by the Controller of Audit on best value in Glasgow City Council. The report draws attention to the findings from the council's 24/25 annual audit report on how effectively it demonstrates best value. And the Commission is being asked to consider and endorse the Controller’s report in this session and will then consider in private later today how we wish to proceed. 
The Controller and the auditors are here to answer any questions that members have on the Controller's report and the annual audit report as it all relates to best value. I think we've got about around an hour and a quarter, we could possibly take a little bit more for this session because it is a significant large report concerning Scotland's biggest local authority. 
With that introduction outlined, I'll just hand over to Helena in the first instance as Controller of Audit and she's joined by Stephen and Rachel from EY. Helena. 

Helena Gray  6:20
Thank you, good morning everybody, and I welcome the opportunity to discuss my best value report with the Commission today. As the Deputy Chair has already mentioned I’m joined by Stephen and Rachel from the audit team, and I thank them for all their work on the audit. The report covers a lot of ground, as you might expect, given the scale and complexity of the challenges a city like Glasgow faces, and against that backdrop, my report highlights that the council has a clear strategic vision, has embedded transformation in its overall strategic plans, and there are strong examples of the council working collaboratively to achieve its priorities. 
However, my report also highlights concerns raised by the auditor around the timeliness and balance of annual performance reports, governance, in particular matters raised within the annual governance statement, and the lack of a finalised workforce strategy and consistent council-wide staff engagement. 
In terms of financial management … overspends in the last six years, with a net overspend in 24/25 of 45.7 million and reserves at their lowest level since 2018/19. The council has taken steps to strengthen financial planning and while still subject to audit, the 25/26 performance against budget is much improved, with a small underspend reported. 
However, my report highlights the significant financial pressures and challenges faced by the council, notably in relation to homeliness… homelessness, but also in relation to equal pay, the latter of which are currently not captured in its forecast budget of 109.7 million over 26/27 and 2027/28, sorry, that's the budget gap forecast. 
In this context, while recognising the complexity of the challenges facing the city and the external funding environment, the absence of a medium-term financial plan, which is a sense… assesses the potential impacts of the issues the council faces against its reserves position and its strategic priorities is concerning.
The council must balance addressing financial sustainability risks with a range of competing demands and of critical importance for the council is the implementation of a revised pay and grading structure by April 2027, while concurrently replacing its finance system, changing how ICT is delivered and responding to a significant number of outstanding audit recommendations in relation to governance, scrutiny and performance management. And delivery of these matters will be fundamental in order for the council to be able to demonstrate it is delivering best value for its communities.
I'll conclude by highlighting that this report comes at a crucial time for the council, with the council’s City Administration Committee due to consider updates later this month on pay and grading and the council's financial outlook. And the team and I look forward to discussing this report in further detail. 

Andrew Burns  9:12
Thanks very much, Helena. And as colleagues know, but just for the sake of those that are watching, our standard procedure for discussing these reports is to try and organise, as best we can, our lines of questioning into broad themes. And we've got six themes, which roughly sort of correlate to the sections in the Controller’s covering report. And those six themes are financial management, financial sustainability, leadership and governance, citizen and community engagement, performance management and reporting, and then workforce. So, I'm going to take each of those in turn, and one Commission member will lead off on each of those areas. And the first theme, as I've just said, is financial management. I'm going to turn to Angela for the first question.

Angela Leitch  9:59
Thanks, Helena, for your report, Stephen and Rachel. It's a really comprehensive coverage of what's happening in Glasgow. Can I just ask by asking for some further expansion of the assurance that you have that leaders, both executive and political level, fully recognise the financial risks and the scale of the financial challenges ahead? 

Helena Gray  10:24
Yeah, and I'll bring in Stephen and Rachel to share some of their reflections. But I think to start with, I'd highlight that following previous audit recommendations and elected member feedback, officers have made several changes to the way in which financial monitoring reports are presented to improve that transparency and focus on those key factors that elected members will need to focus on as part of their decision-making. And I think an example of that is increased detail on the use of the budget support fund. But I’ll bring in the team to talk a bit more about their conversations and observations as well as how the council approaches managing financial risk as well. 

Stephen Reid  11:11
Let me start. Good morning everyone. So in terms, Angela, your question, the last, most recent comprehensive update, which the Director of Finance presented, was in August 25, which was a broad outlook of financial challenges, and that was presented not only through the political oversight group, but also to Council itself. 
As Helena mentioned, there is an addition, there is an update to that paper expected to go later this month, it sets again the … line of the overall challenges facing, at a high level, the authority. 
I think if we look at the risk register and the key risks that are identified within the risk register, then certainly financial sustainability and a number of the contributing elements of that are identified as significant risks.
So I do believe that officers and members, based on papers that are being or have been and are being presented and the risk register, are aware of the significant challenges. There's a separate question about the unknown unknowns, if you like, and the items at this current time that perhaps can't be as fully quantified as officers would ideally like.

Andrew Burns  
Interesting. Angela, do you want to follow up?

Angela Leitch  12:31
So, yeah, in recognition of that then, what… what kind of assurance can we have about the controls that are in place so that the awareness is there? How, what’s the action being taken to make sure that officers at all levels across the organisation are aware of their responsibility, their accountability to manage within the financial envelope allocated to them, and are you satisfied on the scheme of delegation and the controls that sit around that? 

Helena Gray  
Sorry, hand to Stephen on that. 

Stephen Reid  13:05
Yeah, so, so you touched on it there, and certainly as auditors, we're content that there is, you know, the governance framework and we highlight in our 24/25 annual audit report that the council does have the key elements of the required governance framework in place and that does include the scheme of delegation, it does include the responsibilities being delegated to service holders as well for the management of budget and responsibility for delivering against budgets that are agreed. 
If we look, albeit unaudited, at the 25/26 position, as Helena mentioned in her opening remarks, you'll see that the surplus that is being reported is around about 1 million. So while over the past four, five, six years, we have seen increasing deficits. One of the comments that we have made previously is the need for management to re-examine the baseline budgets, to get a realistic baseline budget, notwithstanding that in some services demand pressures are always going to be a challenge, but there is an ability to also manage demand pressures through innovative approaches to dealing with that demand. It would appear, in the 25/26 budget … some re-baselining. So I don't have, as auditor, I don't have a concern over the absence of controls.

Angela Leitch  14:30
And in terms of the overspend, which is significant for 24/25, particularly in relation to neighbourhood services I think you say in the report. Again, what actions are you seeing that have taken place in the subsequent year that might give us assurance that things are turning a corner?

Helena Gray  14:52
Yes, Stephen has already mentioned some of this already, and I think, as we've already highlighted, we have seen with the, although unaudited, 25/26 outturn that sort of stronger control over, over the budget. I think those overspends can be attributed to a variety of different reasons, you know, inflationary pressures as well as demand on services. And as Stephen's highlighted, part of what’s … that building in those recurring overspends into the budget wherever appropriate and then ensuring additional control of costs.

Stephen Reid  
No, nothing to add.

Andrew Burns  
Angela, go ahead.

Angela Leitch  
Just one final thing for me.

Andrew Burns  
That’s fine.

Angela Leitch  15:42
The budget support fund that you mentioned, Helena.
So it was scheduled to have been reduced to nil by March 26. Did that happen and if so, how do they plan to address any future budget gaps? 

Helena Gray  16:02
So again, that's unaudited at the moment, but I believe that the council reported that that fund was fully utilised in 25/26. 
You'll be aware that the fund was created as a result of fiscal flexibility in relation to service concessions and the intention was to support the financial sustainability and
implementation costs associated with those budget savings options, but has in reality been used to support homelessness pressures and the deficit position going forward. 
I think in terms of that, that future question around supporting the, closing that funding gap, I think that's where we'd really point to the, to the medium-term financial plan and the need for such a plan that would really set out the choices and the priorities and the options … 

Angela Leitch  
To date, still a gap. Thank you. 

Andrew Burns  
Thanks. I'm sure we'll come back to the financial strategy when we get to financial sustainability, the next topic. Just to - thanks Angela - just sticking with financial management. Ruth, did you have a follow up on some of this?

Ruth MacLeod  17:12
Thank you. Just a couple of questions from me. Morning. Obviously, the report highlights quite significant pressures on the finance team. I'm just wondering if you can say a bit more about resourcing and resilience in the team, particularly given some of the big issues that are coming over the hill in terms of pay reform and the new financial platform.

Helena Gray  17:35
Thanks, and again, Stephen, I'll bring you in. But I think it's, I think it's fair to say that you've highlighted that the key personnel have the experience and, you know, demonstrates a strong working understanding of the council's arrangements and that there has been turnover within the team and that that's been managed well. But I think, as the report highlights, there are some significant priorities coming ahead and it's about how that's kept under review. 

Stephen Reid  18:05
Yes, so I mean, in each of the three years of our annual audits, we've raised matters in relation to the capacity and capability, particularly more recently we saw some significant turnover within the finance team. I have to say, as we've reported, the finance team have coped well with that, and the transition has gone well. 
Nonetheless, given the pressures, number of challenges, so as Helena talked about, whether that be in relation to the implementation of pay and grading, the new finance system, the ongoing complexity of financial reporting in local government and some of the complexities that we've had to deal with. For example, around service concession accounting, most recently IFRS 16. And then on the horizon, we have, although still subject to consultation, some large proposed changes to the financial reporting framework in local government. 
So the council team, finance team, had a lot to deal with. I don't see on the horizon, a lot of that getting any easier … and officers recognise that, and have agreed to keep under review … the capacity and capability on to that emerging environment.

Ruth MacLeod  
[Inaudible] … capacity issues…

Stephen Reid  19:43
I don't think so directly. I mean, I think at the current time, I think there's something around 34 recommendations outstanding. You'll see from the 24/25 annual audit report that there has been progress made by officers … the nature of those recommendations very much cover a number of the themes within the Controller of Audit’s report here today and by their very nature are strategic in focus, and will take a number of years.
So I don't have any concerns that management aren't appropriately focused on the recommendations. Any of the more straightforward ones to implement, I think, are being driven forward. But as I say, the very nature are a number of them will take some time to implement and are linked to things like the new finance system, for example, or workforce strategy. Really in relation to workforce, I know we’ll come back to it, but the priority is obviously pay and grading.

Ruth MacLeod  20:54
Just finally, as well, if I could just ask a bit about the new finance system. Obviously there are always risks with changes on that scale. Is the council planning for that in terms of resources? Are you aware of any kind of checks that they might be doing with other councils … resource implication going forward?

Stephen Reid  21:22
Clearly, the change of finance system, from memory, current support, support for the current system expires towards the end of 2027, and therefore there is a strategic imperative for a new finance system. This has been under consideration by the council and officers for some time. Business case process and governance around that. And they have identified significant numbers of internal members of staff to take it forward and implement the new system. 
But I think importantly, using third-party support in terms of the implementation and that third-party support, I think, brings that insight from the implementation of similar finance systems, not just here in Scotland, not just in local government, but also more broadly across the UK. And I think that's important. 

Ruth MacLeod  22:17
That might take some of the pressure off the internal resource as well to have that support. Thank you.

Andrew Burns  22:23
Thanks, Ruth. We're going to move on to financial sustainability in a minute, but just before we do, is there any further questions on the sort of general issues of financial management that any colleagues want to pursue?
If it's OK then, we'll move on to the second theme which I highlighted at the start of this topic or this report, and it's financial sustainability. And I'll turn to Derek first to lead us off on that. 

Derek Yule  22:44
OK, thanks, Andrew. And thanks very much for the reports, both Helena's report and the annual audit report. I’d have to say it's one, one I found… the highest quality report I’ve looked at in terms of the presentation. I mean, it's a long read, a challenging read! But I think it was easy to work the way through. So I did value, value that. 
One thing I was, and maybe just to make that link from financial management to financial sustainability. One thing I always look for in either a best value report or annual audit report is a three word statement, and I've read the report a couple, and I haven't found it in terms of Glasgow, and that three word phrase I'm looking for is sound financial management. 
So I want to tease out a bit, we've obviously covered the financial management in terms of the ongoing day-to-day monitoring. But one of the key elements of that financial sustainability is obviously having a medium-term financial strategy. And you and I have had a discussion a few times, Helena, on what we actually mean by that. So I'm keen to tease out what you think is missing, because what comes in the report, the council has obviously done some financial modelling and projections, at least over the next couple of years, which seems a wee bit light in terms of looking longer-term, but they have it. But I'm conscious that the council's facing some substantial financial challenges, which are probably, if not unique to Glasgow, certainly have a higher prominence there, which comes with significant risk. 
But I want to tease out, is it getting the basics right? Because what was the feeling coming through the report was I think some of the core basics are maybe not at the level that you might expect it to see. So in terms of the medium-term financial strategy, to get there, what does the council need to do that it's not currently doing?
And in terms of looking for some assurances about budget modelling, are they modelling different scenarios rather than just come up with a figure that the budget gap is X? What's backing that up? What are they modelling or to get assurances that they are modelling and what factors they've taken into account or perhaps what they haven't at this stage included within that?

Andrew Burns  
Thanks, Derek.

Helena Gray  25:13
A lot within that and I'll start and then I'll bring in Stephen as well. I think it's probably worth recognising as well what the council are doing and have done. 
So as the report sets out, in November 2023, the council agreed a high-level
medium-term budget strategy, which was for the period 2024 to 2027, and they agreed a three-year budget in February 2024. 
In August last year, they produced a financial outlook covering the period 2026 to 2028, which they presented to the City Administration Committee. And again, I think that demonstrates that improvement in financial planning for the future. But, as you and I have had a debate about before, it's not sort of that 10-year medium-term financial strategy that we might, might be hoping for, setting out those longer-term financial planning. So the different scenarios, different ranges and the choices, crucially, that I think they have to make and the implications of those. As I've mentioned already, the council is working on that 10-year outlook and Stephen might want to come in a bit more about that. 
And I'll also bring Stephen in to talk a bit about the modelling and different scenarios that the council do consider.

Andrew Burns  
Thanks, Helena. Stephen.

Stephen Reid  26:43
Thank you. So Derek, I took away two elements of your question. One was around almost the financial reporting, budget monitoring, and you'll see within our annual audit report that we have commented over the past three years on a number of elements of the information that's presented to elected members and how easy that is for elected members to interrogate and scrutinise. And I think a good example of some of the commentary we've got in our annual reports was around the kind of capital report that was going to Finance and Audit Scrutiny Committee. I think that was some 80 odd pages and therefore you could argue that, you know, that's a bit impenetrable and challenging at least for members to be able to see the key indicators and then to be, to scrutinise on that basis. 
I think to be fair, management have responded to some of our comments around budget monitoring type reports and that will be a continuing journey, clearly, going forward.
In terms of the medium-term financial plan, I think, just to build on what Helena said, as the, I wouldn't want the Commission to think that the council do nothing in this space and I think that's really important. You know, in terms of some of the reports and work, you know, there has been an overview of the economic and the Scottish outlook, which has gone into some of the reports that Helena referenced. Those projections and assumptions, paired around key areas between 26 and 28, and then some of the anticipated funding movements are taken into account as well, spending pressures. And then there's clearly, in the paper that went in August 25, the key financial risks were highlighted going forward.
I think from our perspective in terms of some of the gaps and what we would like to see in a medium-term financial plan are some detailed financial projections rather than just the impacts on the movement of funding and spending. Also, I think there's an opportunity to improve the linkage between the overall strategy and some of the supporting strategies and the financial plan overall, so that that golden thread is clear. 
Again, quantified savings and transformation programmes, how those are
built into the longer term and what the expectation is in terms of their delivery and then some more detail around the assessment of the funding and demand risks.
I think reserves, clearly we've talked already about reserves and the relative position of the council's general fund. So I think in that plan I would like to see more information on reserves and what the profile of those look like over the period, and then the actions which the council are proposing both in terms of savings or transformation or service reform, around what they are aiming to do to address those gaps and what those options look like clearly for elected members to consider and make decisions. 
And then I think there's something about clearer scenario planning. Again, I'm not saying all that doesn't happen, but it's about where it happens and the degree of scrutiny and that information that's also in the public domain, which I think is important.

Derek Yule  30:15
No, that's really helpful, Stephen. Thank you. I mean, I suppose one of the things I picked up was that they don't make any assumption on council tax as part of that sort of modelling which seems to differ in approach from other councils. I accept those are political decisions that are made at the time, but just one observation to add to that list, but no, that I think that's really helpful, and I know Malcolm wants to come in about savings, so I’m happy to…

Andrew Burns  
Thanks, Derek. So Malcolm, as Derek’s hinted, you wanted to follow up on savings and reserves that Stephen’s just referenced?

Malcolm Bell  30:45
Yeah, thanks. Just to dig a bit deeper on that… In terms of the delivery of savings, I think an improvement in 24/25 in delivering their targeted savings. Just wondering how, is that a one-off or how sustainable is that moving, moving forward, given the level of challenges that the council clearly…? 

Helena Gray  31:11
Yeah, and happy to provide a bit more context around that actually. So, over the last 10 years, the council has estimated that it's delivered 360 million of savings. So that then, I suppose, puts the current and future savings into context. And as you already mentioned, my report highlights that in 24/25, there's been that improvement in
the delivery of savings with 92% of the target savings delivered. Again, not audited yet, but for the 25/26 budget, again, I think it's showing that 92.5% of the identified savings have, have also been delivered. So I think it's showing that, that improvement, but obviously within that context, savings can get more challenging.

Malcolm Bell  32:06
I guess the question for me is just how sustainable is that going to be, I mean it’s difficult…?
Have you got a sense that this is something that can continue, or?

Helena Gray  32:20
I mean, I think that is the, that's the big question, I think, isn't it? And I think ultimately, again, as Stephen outlined, that's the kind of thing that you'd hope and expect to be drawn out more in terms of the medium-term financial strategy as well.

Malcolm Bell  32:37
Can I just move on… sorry, were you? Yeah, I just want to move on to look at reserves in a bit more detail now, and I think the report states that they’re now at their lowest level since 2018/19 though I think the unaudited, the latest unaudited accounts would suggest there's a slight improvement in that, but they're still below the 2%. How is the council intending to return, or do they intend to return it to the 2%? 

Helena Gray  33:12
So just to clarify in terms of figures, so the 24/25 position so the position at the end of March 25 was unearmarked reserves balance of 1.2% of net budgeted expenditure. Again, the unaudited figures, but the most recent figures, at 31st March 2026 have that balance at 1.9%. So obviously getting closer to that, to that 2%. 
And again, I think as Stephen has already outlined, it's within that medium-term financial strategy setting out their, the implications around … reserves …

Malcolm Bell  33:56
I mean, the concerning thing is that there's a reliance on the reserves to help fill the budget gap. The budget support fund, as we've already discussed, has been fully, or appears to have been fully utilised. So I mean, do they have a, do they have a timescale or is there a timescale or a target for when they would hope to be back within their stated 2%? 

Stephen Reid  34:24
So subject to the unaudited financial statements being audited, then they are moving quite close back to that 2%. Clearly there's some more work to do.
We haven't seen the council's financial paper that we're expecting to be presented soon to the council, but my expectation is that there would be some information in there that would show that. Certainly in discussions with the Director of Finance, they're very cognisant of the importance of having a sustainable level of reserves to deal with these unexpected shocks that can come along, and keen to return to ... reset that balance, and as I say, some progress appears already to have been made.

Andrew Burns  
Thanks, Malcolm. Christine, did you want to come in on this issue? 

Christine Lester  35:13
On financial sustainability? Certainly. So I'm one of the few members who's been here during the equal pay section, previous section 102s. So, my question really is, relating to financial implications of that which is yet to be settled. And also, I'm just trying to understand why it's taking so long to get to this place.

Andrew Burns  35:39
Stephen.

Stephen Reid  35:40
Yeah, so, clearly the, the work in relation to equal pay at Glasgow City Council has been ongoing, as you illustrate, for a considerable number of years. 
In 2023, you will recall there was a memorandum of understanding signed with the trade unions that set the date of April 27. Up until that point, there would be no future claims brought in relation to equal pay. 
I think based on the section 102 reports that the Commission has had over the years and, you know, I think there's at least a few there that have come to the Commission, one thing that I would underline is the complexity of the programme that officers have been going through. If you, and the job matching. I think also safe to say that not all of the matters which have taken time to work through have been directly in the control of the council as well. 
But just, just for illustration, you know, I think there are some 19,000 primary indicators, two and a half / 3000 secondary indicators, and then the process that had to be go, to be gone through by officers with input from the trade unions to go through an assimilation or matching exercise and an assessment and valuation.
So a very, very complex, complex process. 
There is the intention that there will be reports going later this month with an update to the council and certainly in our engagement with both senior officers, including the Director of Finance and the Chief Executive, there is a real focus on ensuring that there is progress to deliver an arrangement by the April 27 timeline by which the memorandum of understanding expires.

Christine Lester  37:43
Is it, is it your view that they'll meet that deadline?

Stephen Reid  37:47
I wish I could give a view, but I can't give a view, unfortunately, because, you know, the discussions are ongoing between officers and the trade unions. As I say, not all of the factors are within the gift of the council, and therefore I can say that I see officers working very hard to reach a resolution on this matter, but I can't give any assurances that that timeline will be delivered. 

Christine Lester  38:16
And just one wee follow up, if you don't mind, just on the financial implications after April. Has there been any work done on modelling and how that plays into, you know, what might still come in terms of that financial obligation that they will have?

Stephen Reid  38:36
I mean, certainly from the audit perspective, if you look at our 24/25 report, clearly from an accounting perspective, we're very interested, let alone our broader responsibilities here. And we report in there that, you know, that it was unable to be quantified. And clearly we haven't received anything from officers since with any quantification at this date.

Christine Lester  
They don't know. 

Andrew Burns  38:58
OK, thanks, thanks, Christine. So it's fair to say, Helena, Stephen, Rachel, that you know, I know you can't give a view, but senior officers and senior politicians are aware of the urgency and priority to try and resolve this prior to April 2027. And just mention that also just bookmarks the end of an electoral cycle as well. 
So it's, obviously, they understand the urgency is what you're saying, but you can't give a view on whether they'll achieve it, that they understand how serious achieving that target is. 

Stephen Reid  
I think that's fair. 

Andrew Burns  39:32
Thanks. So sticking on, in the general broad area of financial sustainability,
Jennifer, I think you had some questions on transformation?

Jennifer Henderson  39:40
I do and that's already been mentioned, but I just wanted to pick up, Helena. 
In your report, you talk about the fact that there isn't clear alignment between transformation projects and financial plans so I'd be kind of keen to understand whether there's any sort of improvement in that area and there is starting to be that clearer alignment. And as a sort of secondary question, my reading of your report is that the transformation activity in the council is very much focused on addressing poverty. So I'm interested to understand how are their other strategic priorities playing into supporting their financial sustainability, and are they identifying other opportunities for transformation to support financial sustainability? 
So it's a sort of three-part question, whether the financial alignment is getting better, whether it is broader than poverty, and how they're making sure they're sort of not leaving any stone unturned in how transformation can support their financial sustainability objectives.

Helena Gray  40:38
Thanks, and I'll bring Stephen in to talk a bit more about the alignment with transformation and the financial strategy. I think there is, we've already talked about, and I feel like a bit of a broken record, I think that is something, again, for the medium-term financial strategy to be articulating.
But Stephen can talk a bit more about the audit findings in that area. 
In terms of the priorities, I suppose I bring you back to the council's strategic plan, which is mission based and focused around 4 grand challenges. Now, one of those is around reducing poverty and inequality in communities. The second is around increasing opportunity and prosperity for all communities. The third is around climate change and a just transition to net zero. And then the fourth is around delivering essential services in a sustainable and innovative and efficient way. 
And the council reports progress against all of those grand challenges and in its 2025 progress report, it actually reported that its strongest progress was in the third and fourth of those challenges. So, but I suppose more generally in that question around reporting on progress, because transformation has been embedded within the strategic plan, it's the reporting on the strategic plan and the governance around the strategic plan through which you can see that progress against their transformation priorities, if that makes sense. 
But Stephen, do you want… Rachel, do you want to say a bit more about that alignment, I think, point?

Rachel Wynne  42:17
Absolutely, thank you. 
So in terms of that alignment piece, while the council did streamline a bit more of a focus on poverty, the rationale for doing so is that actually cuts across a lot of the strategic priorities that they've already … So if you take, I suppose, the impact that poverty can have on education, on social … it cuts right across …
So, it's not that they're just focusing on one area but they're recognising that actually, by focusing on that area, it's going to have that wider benefit across other strategic priorities. 
And, as Helena says, in terms of the financial implications of doing so, in our thematic review, we did identify that there could be better linkage in terms of quantifying that financial benefit. Obviously, a lot of that financial benefit might impact partner bodies and not just the local authority, it is very much a community approach they're taking through the planning partnership there on that one.

Andrew Burns  
Thanks so much, Rachel. 
Just finally on this broad area, Mike, did you have some questions around homelessness and IJB? 

Mike Neilson  43:17
Certainly a very complex set of challenges very clearly articulated, I think, in the papers. I had questions on homelessness and the IJB.
But just, overall, is it fair to say your concerns about medium-term planning relate one to transparency and two to the clarity on where the funding might come from? And on the latter, particularly interested in, going to be measures which, which have addressed previous issues by shifting, by either finding short-term solutions like using the trust fund or... is the shifting homelessness fund, and the, the use of sale and leaseback … some implication that there might be some sort of rescheduling … …scheduling is technically the correct word, but again shunting costs into the future. How big a concern is that?
On homelessness, as one of the big pressures, it would be helpful to get a sense of the trend that we're seeing here, in other words, what ... how big is this risk faced by the council going forward and whether the, you have any information on the engagement with other authorities around … the funding of what is a pressure which is to a large extent outside the council's own control.
I’m conscious on the IJB, there was just, there's not much in the paper on the IJB other than around homelessness … how prominent in the overall assessment of financial sustainability … is the council’s exposure to the … or is that an additional potential pressure?

Andrew Burns  
Thanks Mike. Helena, there’s quite a bit there, do you want to…?

Helena Gray  45:44
There's a lot in there. So we'll cherry pick between us! [Laughter]
And I'll start and I'll hopefully start, I might start at the back actually, and we can work forward, because I think on the IJB, and I'll give some warning that I'm going to come to Stephen on the, on the funding points and the homelessness, but I’ll pick up on the IJB. So the council's budget does reflect the cost pressures arising from their anticipated contribution to the IJB, so meeting their commitments, so that is, that is factored within the, within the members.
I suppose just to give you a bit more context on the IJB’s financial outlook, which, as you'll be aware, for the sector overall is challenging. So the 24/25 annual audit report projected 118 million funding gap in the three-year period to 2027/28. But in recognition of this the IJB recently commenced a service prioritisation exercise, a process to identify the servings, the services that are having the greatest impact and value. And they did deliver in 24/25, a 26.6 million savings programme, which has supported an underspend against their operation budget and allowed the IJB to rebuild their general reserves balance, which is now sitting at 1.4% of net expenditure. So that's not to downplay, I suppose, the challenges, but you'll also be aware of the position across the wider sector and actually … articulated here and how that compares. 
But I'll bring in Stephen and Rachel on homelessness and the funding point, if that's OK. 

Andrew Burns  
Thanks Helena. Stephen?

Stephen Reid  47:45
So, yeah, so I mean, just to build slightly on, you know, the Commission should be assured that there is a close working relationship between … and the council, the council and the IJB are fully sighted on the pressures. 
In terms of homelessness, then, the reported costs for 25/26 I think are in a region of about 38 million, and the costs are set to or are projected to increase to somewhere in the region of around about 56 million in 26/27 and again around 90 million in 27/28. So the pressures that Glasgow faces from homelessness are significant, particularly when we see that in the context of some of the previously forecast financial challenges and gaps that Helena referred to. 
And then in terms of the funding piece … Rachel to comment. You referenced the sale and leaseback and the ongoing revenue costs, and you're absolutely right, I think those are in the region of about 34 million per year, and that clearly will run for a number of years. The council, through Scottish Government, has also been able to access some financial flexibilities historically …
Some of that, the areas. But clearly, homelessness alone, the scale of the challenge is significant.

Rachel Wynne  49:28
Just to build on that. The council has been relying on more … measures in terms of their ability to respond to some challenges that you've touched on. So Angela brought up the budget support fund before, which has largely been used to support the council’s deficit, something … that’s a fairly big pressure that has been used for in 25/26. And then for 26/27, that 56 million that Stephen talked about is a capital grant flexibility that is getting used to support that cost as well, so.
That probably brings us back to the medium-term financial plan point and the importance of that in terms of that look-ahead and being able to ... sustainable measures to respond to these pressures, but they are all pressures very unique to Glasgow in terms of what they're responding to.

Andrew Burns  
Thanks, Rachel. Mike, do you want to come in?

Mike Neilson  50:24
Am I to infer that … the engagement with… [inaudible]
… effectively saying is that the capital programme for the current year … [inaudible] … is that…?

Rachel Wynne  50:49
There isn't a permanent agreement with the Scottish Government on how homelessness will be covered. There are ongoing conversations between the council …

Andrew Burns  
Thanks, Rachel. Christine, did you want to…? 

Christine Lester  51:03
Just a very quick question about the homelessness budget figures that you've just spoken about. Are those across the council and the IJB, or do they just, are they just housing related? They don't, because I mean, the council is responsible for housing, IJB is addiction services, health, mental health, that, etcetera.

Rachel Wynne  51:25
Yeah, so the council has chosen to fund homelessness on behalf of the IJB, so that's a pressure that the council has assumed. So it does cover the full pressure. 

Christine Lester  
So that, those figures are across the two entities. OK, I’m trying to understand the council's obligation from the housing perspective, in terms of finance. Is there any way of picking that out?

Stephen Reid  
I don't have that information to hand.

Andrew Burns  51:59
Thanks, Christine. I think that, unless somebody shouts at me, I think that probably draws the queries under the second section, financial sustainability, to a close. We spent a little bit more time on that. I hope that's OK with colleagues, I mean it’s obviously at the core of the challenges that face Glasgow City Council.
So I'm going to move us on then, if that's OK, to the third area. This is 3 of 6 remember! Leadership and governance, also pretty crucial to the challenges that face Glasgow City Council. And I'm going to turn to Ruth, to kick us off on that. Ruth?

Ruth MacLeod  52:31
…a bit about leadership capacity and how resource is being prioritised. You've obviously got the really extreme complexity of the pay and grading reform work, ICT transformation and the new finance platform which are all huge, very complex projects. How is leadership sort of prioritising how they work across these areas and has any work been done … staff capacity and also capability in these areas? I note for the finance platform that there is some external help with that, but…

Helena Gray  53:13
Yeah, there's probably quite a bit within that to unpick. So again I’ll bring in Stephen and Rachel to share some of their observations, I think. And it's probably worth also just being clear, on the capacity point, whether you're thinking specifically of leadership or wider, I suppose, wider organisation-wide capacity. 
And I think this is something that we've obviously highlighted in the, in my report, actually, the range of challenges facing the council, and … leadership challenge.
Probably worth stepping back a little bit as well, just to note the senior leadership restructure in the summer of last year, which creates a corporate leadership team which has that strategic oversight and then a revised governance framework that sits around that, that includes steering groups, a political oversight group, to ensure
that, I suppose that strategic oversight of the council priorities that we've just been, been talking about. 
I think as we highlighted in the report, it's too early to say, really, the impact and the effectiveness of that re, of that restructure, but that's something that Stephen and Rachel might be able to share some observations on. 
I think in terms of that capacity point and the bit that I was just sort of trying to unpick, whether it's leadership capacity or organisational capacity, because obviously my report highlights the extensive workforce planning arrangements that the council does have in place and that reflect the size and complexity, I think, of the group and the different arrangements and governance around that, but does, I suppose, highlight that strategic gap of that overarching strategic workforce strategy, but just to provide, I suppose, that reassurance that there are those service planning arrangements … many of those capacity points and looking at things like succession planning as well. 
But Stephen, Rachel, I don't know if you want to come in?

Stephen Reid  55:16
Yeah, I mean, the points that are raised are ones that we've flagged as risks in our annual reporting in terms of that capacity and ones that officers are very much aware of. 
And I think what we have seen, and clearly the 25/26 audit will be … is, relative prioritisation and decisions being taken about timelines. One of the risks we did highlight was pay and grading, new finance system, and that they were running on very similar timescales. Now, there has been action taken to revise the timeline for the new finance system. But that would be, eases, I would say, rather than resolves some of that, some of the pressure. So I think the risks that you highlight we recognise and I think officers are also recognise.

Ruth MacLeod  56:08
You touched on it briefly, but there has been updates for us in terms of the leadership restructure and culture issues as well that kind of emanated from the recent section 102 on the exit packages. Is there anything you can tell us about how things might be changing in that area or if there's a new approach there, or when we might hear a kind of further update on how things are changing and looking?

Helena Gray  56:35
Yeah so my report touches on the wider culture … culture is such a difficult thing to measure and quantify, actually. But as set out in the report, the council has issued the Improvement Service’s culture checklist to all staff in service or ALEO management teams. And I think what that will do is help create that baseline, I suppose, from which you can then look at that progress. 
I think the outputs from that exercise have been considered at a development session that was held in, in June, and then there are further sessions expected to take place over the course of the year. But I'm not sure we have anything further to add at this point, but I suppose in terms of that question around measurement, I think that's the aim is that baseline.

Andrew Burns  57:30
OK Ruth? I mean, thanks Ruth, and I'm sure it's something that auditors won’t want to comment on, but obviously just to put on the record that we're clearly aware that under leadership as well, there's going to be a change in political leadership coming up, we understand on the 10th of September. It's obviously crucial that that golden thread that you touched on a few times, Stephen, continues politically as well through the leadership change and the Commission are aware of that. It's not something we can control, but we're aware it's about to happen. But we understand on the 10th of September. 
But Mike, did you want to come in on this general point? 

Mike Neilson  58:01
Could you just say what the new timings are? For the financial … But you said they'd been rephased? 

Rachel Wynne  58:10
So the council are looking at rephasing them at the moment. They haven't confirmed an exact date of implementation, but they did always recognise that these projects were likely to overlap. They wanted to go ahead with the finance system, just because of the amount of work involved and then they were always going to review it when more was available on the pay and grading.

Andrew Burns  
Thanks, Rachel. Christine, do you have a follow up on this specific point? …Malcolm. 

Christine Lester  58:34
Just a quick question on the leadership. In paragraph 26 of the report, you say that corporate leadership team leads on the key priorities and it says what it includes, but what it doesn't say is equal pay within those priorities and the pay and grading. Is that being dealt with at that level? Is that specific question on that. And the other thing is also following up audit recommendations because throughout the report, as we've referred to the fact that recommendations have been made and not followed up on. So is that also a priority for that corporate leadership team? Especially important given that there's going to be changes of individual personnel…

Andrew Burns  
Stephen.

Stephen Reid  59:17
So, so in terms of the absolutely, I can confirm that that's at the most senior level of the council. 

Christine Lester 
Good!

Stephen Reid  
And then in terms of the audit recommendations, yeah, as I touched on slightly earlier, if you look at the audit recommendations that, that are sitting there, there are some around financial control, financial sustainability, ICT, governance, performance management and workforce. And necessarily there are some of those which appropriately are sitting at, with, you know, at the strategic level, corporate leadership team, and there are some others which are more finance-focused. So I am content that those are getting the correct focus, the ones that need to be at corporate leadership team versus the ones that are sitting in the…

Christine Lester  
Thanks for that. Thank you.

Andrew Burns  
Thanks, Christine. Malcolm, you have some queries around the general theme of leadership as well. 

Malcolm Bell  1:00:08	
Yeah, I just want to look at governance and scrutiny arrangements. We’ve read the improved governance arrangements following previous audits. I just wonder if you could maybe say a bit more about that, and in your view, are they sufficiently robust to ensure that the weaknesses that we've seen previously don't reoccur?

Helena Gray  
Can I just double check, is that in relation to the annual governance statement and the City Buildings? 

Malcolm Bell  
No, I was going to come on to City Buildings. I was thinking more in terms of the... 

Helena Gray  
The Audit and Scrutiny Committee? 

Malcolm Bell  
Yes. 

Helena Gray  1:00:49
Yeah, so again, I'll bring Stephen in to talk a bit about his observations actually as well, but I think, as we've, as the report highlights, there has been some of that turnover in membership. I think that's been driven by individual circumstances, but the council has got self-assessment arrangements in place as well as independent assessments of committee effectiveness.
I think the auditors have previously reported that there is scope for the committee to enhance that scrutiny, and perhaps you want to come in and say a little bit more about that, and then particularly elected member training around scrutiny. 

Stephen Reid  1:01:30
Yeah, so we have made observations in terms of the level of, I suppose, scrutiny and engagement at Finance and Audit Scrutiny Committee. Recognising the change in membership, there was a training seminar held in March, earlier this year. However, only four members attended that, so there has been additional plans in place to hold additional sessions, and also some additional suggestions about greater member attendance rather than attending virtually. 
So, you know, I’ll make the observation and I think Helena's report makes the observation that I think there is scope for member scrutiny to be improved, not just at Finance and Audit Scrutiny but, but generally.

Andrew Burns  
Thanks Stephen. Malcolm, did you say you wanted to come back on another element of…? 

Malcolm Bell  1:02:23
Yeah, I was, I was going to cover the recommendations, but you've already covered that in answer to Christine’s question. Can I turn to the council group and the City Building situation?
Maybe give us an update on the position there and again an assessment of the new government, governance arrangement. 

Helena Gray  
I’m going to pass straight to Stephen, I think, for...

Stephen Reid  1:02:54
So let me start from the position of the financial statements and then we can go down if you like into City Building and what's been happening there. 
So for the last three years when we've been appointed as external auditor, the group
financial statements, the opinion on the group financial statements have been modified as a result of City Building and that relates to whistleblowing matters that were reported. Management and the Wheatley Group commissioned a review. That review identified a number of recommendations and those recommendations have been implemented and being monitored by … being City Building. 
In relation to 25/26, City Building and auditors have been working to make up the delays as it were, and we are expecting, we have issued group financial, sorry group instructions to the auditors, so we are expecting to have audited financial statements for 25/26. The opinion for 25/26 from me on the group financial statements will continue to be modified because clearly that modification will take a couple of years to roll, roll out. So in terms of the financial reporting at City Building, there has been improvements and they are slowly catching up, which is helpful. And then in terms of identifying the governance matters that were identified, then again, there has been progress and progress continues to be made. 
I think importantly, however, the internal auditors in their opinion, and in their governance statement for 24/25, the council also draws out the position in relation to not only progress, but some further work that requires to be done.

Malcolm Bell  1:04:47
Yeah, yeah, and can we be assured that, you know, we won't find similar weaknesses elsewhere in the group that have been addressed in City Building? Or is…

Andrew Burns  
I'm not sure that Stephen’s going to say ‘you can be sure’! [Laughter]

Stephen Reid  
Until I've done an audit! Until then I'm not going to provide that assurance. 
Clearly, the council has a complex group structure. They have arrangements in place. We have identified, through the 24/25 report, some opportunities to enhance the linkages, particularly in relation to the SEC and some of the challenges that have been experienced there. 
So what I can say is that officers have taken the matters that were identified, taken them very seriously, and have got work to resolve those matters. 

Malcolm Bell  
Well that’s, that's fine. I mean, that's kind of level I was, I wasn't expecting…!

Andrew Burns
Thanks, Malcolm. Just sticking with governance for a couple more minutes. I think Derek, you had a few questions around ICT... 

Derek Yule  1:05:51
Yeah, just specifically about ICT governance, because you'd obviously highlighted a number of concerns about that.
I noticed elsewhere in your report that the city council was moving, or it has moved to a multi-supplier model, for its IT, so I just wondered what the rationale for that is, and does it alleviate your concerns or does it potentially increase the reserves in terms of that variety, increase in the range of provision of various elements to that? So I was, it’d be interesting to just to tease that out a bit more. 

Helena Gray  1:06:28
Yeah, I'm not sure how much we've got on the rationale. It was obviously subject to a business case that was presented to the City Administration Committee and on the back of that, a preferred delivery model selected, and that business case will have evaluated the different models, taking into account the risks associated with them, as well as functional delivery requirements. I don’t know if there's anything more that you'd want to say, particularly in terms of the governance or the...

Rachel Wynne  1:07:04
In terms of the business case itself, it got the standard consideration that kind of … of that nature in terms of evaluating the different models, assessing risks of those models, and obviously the financial costs involved in each of them as well. So we've got no specific concerns in that area in terms of whether the council evaluated things appropriately when they were making …

Andrew Burns
And Carol did you…?

Carol Evans  1:07:29
It's related to that one, yeah, it’s related, so, when they looked at risks, did they look specifically at things like the cyber security risk with multiple suppliers … often, it's harder to get integrated data management when you’ve got multiple suppliers. So, I'm aware they will have looked at the financials, but have they looked at some of those more operational aspects in deciding on those models? 

Helena Gray  
Yeah, I'll bring Rachel in, but…

Rachel Wynne  
Yes, I understand they did consider the wider aspects of that contract.

Andrew Burns  1:07:59
Thanks, Carol. Thanks, Rachel. Derek, you OK on that?
OK colleagues, because I think unless anybody shouts at me, that draws this sort of topic of leadership and governance to a close. So I'm going to move us on to the fourth topic area, which is citizen and community engagement. I think Nichola, you’re going to lead us off on questions on this area. 

Nichola Brown  1:08:18
Thank you, and thanks very much for the reports.
So in terms of citizen and community engagement, the Controller's report indicates that some progress has been made in this area. I wondered if there was a bit more that could be said about the strategic plan 22-27, which set out the approach to engaging community engagement. And is there examples that could be brought forward around some of the action that's been taken in that area? 

Helena Gray  1:08:49
Yeah, so I'm happy to kick off. So, as you said, that the strategic plan sets out the council's approach to embedding community engagement and gives a, you know, we’ve given a couple of examples already around sort of consultation on the refurbishment of George Square, engagement with foster/kinship carers and equality groups. I think the council also delivers regular engagement through household surveys, budget consultation and targeted participation projects. And then I think within the transformation thematic as well, we give a couple of sort of examples, too, around that community engagement and participation, but I don’t know if Rachel wants to say any more?

Rachel Wynne  1:09:37
Yeah. I mean, in terms of the, probably the best examples, actually, I touched on them probably from the last year's thematic review in terms of that work that the council are doing around poverty. So a couple of the case studies in there, talks, Glasgow Helps being one example, which is a multi-partner approach where individuals can approach any partner organisation and get support that way and I think that's a really good example of both considering frontline services and how the council are working with citizens but also how they’re working with their partners as well on that. 
In terms of how they've assessed that, there's also been a good example again, it’s Tell Your Story, which is where the partners have went out to both organisations that are delivering some of these services, but also individual families that are impacted, and actually getting them to talk about their story and they're using that to inform how they shape the strategy as well moving forward.
Yeah, they're doing an awful lot of work in that area. I think the poverty work is probably the best example, there are numerous more that we could talk about as well.

Andrew Burns  
OK thanks, Rachel. Nichola, did you want to come back on any of that?

Nichola Brown  1:10:45
I guess, yeah, thank you, that's helpful.
So that probably already answers some of the follow-up areas around engagement in practice. So you've answered that already. 
I guess turning then to community engagement in local areas, because what's been described is that focus around the poverty actions and then specific areas of engagement around George Square and with equalities groups. But in terms of local wards and local governance structures, could you say a wee bit more about both the structures that support engagement in local communities, geographic communities, the wards, etcetera, and then linked to that, we see in the report that there's investment across the 23 wards of a million pounds in community participatory projects. 
Is there a sense of how the impact of that investment is being measured? That would be around, it's around 44,000 pounds per ward, so it would be good to hear a bit about how confident the council is about the impact of that investment.

Andrew Burns  
Thanks, Nichola. 

Helena Gray  1:12:05
And I'll bring Rachel in, I think, particularly to talk about that neighbourhood infrastructure improvement fund. I think there are some other examples as well that are highlighted in some of the other thematics around a community choices platform, which is about enabling residents to discuss local issues and vote on participatory budgets, Centre for Civic Innovation, where the council team is working with residents to co-design responses to city challenges and then also a City Changemakers scheme, which is a neighbourhood programme around testing community-led responses to climate as well. So I think hopefully that gives a bit more of a flavour of some of them. But Rachel, do you want to come in on the neighbourhood investment… improvement fund, sorry?

Rachel Wynne  1:12:56
Yeah. The Neighbourhood Infrastructure Improvement Fund was set up to allow communities to have a bit more say in terms of investment in their local areas, and that was primarily through the area partnership forums, which means decisions could be made around how that funding was used and assessing the benefits of it. It is an area we're currently looking at in terms of the asset management thematic review, which we're just finalising at the moment, so then we'd be able to report more about…

Andrew Burns  
OK Nichola?

Nichola Brown  
Yeah.

Andrew Burns  
Thanks, colleagues. Mike, did you want to come in on this general area? 

Mike Neilson  1:13:32
Just to make sure I understood. You were saying this money is actually effectively to run the administering of more effective engagement…?

Rachel Wynne  
So it's allowing communities to decide how some money can be spent in their local area. So it's giving the communities a bit more … in terms of actually deciding how that funds can be used,,,

Mike Neilson  
…this money?

Rachel Wynne  
No it is, it's that money specifically.

Andrew Burns  1:14:06
OK Mike? OK Nichola?
Any other query? If there's no other query on citizen and community engagement. I'm not seeing any. I'm going to move us on then to this area, which is performance management and reporting and Carol, I think you're going to kick us off on this broad topic. 

Carol Evans  1:14:22
Yeah, so it's really around the SPI Direction. Obviously, that's very important to the Accounts Commission, particularly this year, as we're looking at new SPI Direction going forward. But can you give the reasons for the non-compliance to it for three consecutive years and whether leadership really recognised the importance of it? And linked to that, the fact that the performance framework seems to have taken a long time to deliver and I know it was due in April 26 for the report and the framework in May 26 and whether they actually did deliver. So, because they're all kind of linked. 

Helena Gray  1:14:57
I’ll probably bring the team in just to talk through the different steps around that compliance point. 

Stephen Reid  1:15:01  
Yeah. So I think fair to say in the three years where we've expressed an opinion, the performance report that you're referring to has only been available in one of those audit years, which was 23/24? 23/24.
In terms of the factors which have contributed to our recommendations and comments that we've made over the years, there clearly has been system limitations and that's been a key factor. I think there's also been capacity limitations as well. And then in the one report that was published within the timeline to allow us to review it as part of the audit process, we have made commentary around the balanced nature of that report.
It is an area that is recognised by officers and, April 25, the 24/25 report was published. So as part of the 25/26 external audit, we'll clearly look at that. And also officers have committed to publish the 25/26 report by September. So again, we ought to be able to look at that one as part of the 25/26 audit which is due and we are due to report on the audit in December this year. So it’ll be helpful, that will give us some evidence about how management have responded to the challenges that we've raised and the format and content of the report. 

Carol Evans  1:16:33
Thank you. And then a follow-on on the LGBF indicators, how are they being utilised across the council and do you feel it's been effective? 

Helena Gray  
Yeah, Rachel, I don’t know, do you want…?

Rachel Wynne  1:16:44
So on an annual basis, the council does present the LGBF indicators to the Operational Performance and Delivery Scrutiny Committee and also finance and Audit Scrutiny Committee get them as well. In terms of how then their bedding, embedded at a lower level, they do then go down to the different service areas and then they're monitored at a more local level, if you like, in terms of, and what they'll really focus on is those indicators that are outwith agreed tolerances. So really focusing on those ones which are outliers within the data. And they've got a strategic performance group that then monitors that overall in terms of how then …

Carol Evans  1:17:25
And within that, do they have a sort of strategic overview where they, you know, they invest more in some measures than others, which link to then their strategic priorities. And if they do, do they see that the ones that are improving are the ones that had had more investment and their … that are not linked strategically have, are the ones that are doing less well?

Rachel Wynne  1:17:47
Very good question. I mean, in terms of how they look at it at a total level, we will absolutely link through their annual performance reports in terms of … strategic priorities with LGBF indicators. In terms of that direct correlation in terms of investment, I don't think we'd be able to comment on it at this point.

Helena Gray  1:18:09
And just to add to that, and Rachel, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the council are doing some work with the Improvement Service, which is to better understand some of the benchmarking indicators and specifically those areas where they have poor performance are or outliers to better understand that as well, so I think that's an extra piece of work that they're also doing in that space.

Andrew Burns  1:18:34
OK Carol? 
Thanks. Anything else on performance management and reporting, colleagues?
If not, Helena, Stephen and Rachel are going to be delighted to know we're coming to our sixth and final theme, which is workforce, and Jennifer, you're going to lead us off on this one.

Jennifer Henderson  1:18:50
Hopefully going to make it quite quick because I've really got two things I want to pick up on. The workforce strategy is the first one and then staff satisfaction is the second one. 
If I can pick up on the workforce strategy first. Helena, you comment in your report, there isn't currently a standalone workforce or people strategy and I read that
work is underway to develop one, should be expected in April 27. But I just wonder, A, do we understand why there was a delay or is a delay? And secondly, in the absence of a strategy, how can we be assured that the council is making good decisions about its workforce needs? And in particular, whether we can be assured that not having a strategy isn't incurring extra cost in the short term because they're having to make potentially more costly decisions around filling workforce gaps and things. So I think if you can just talk a little bit about how the lack of a strategy is or is not impacting on council's decisions around the workforce, that would be really helpful. 

Helena Gray  1:19:52
Yeah, and I’ll bring the team in, but I suppose I alluded to this already, in that although the council don't have a single standalone people strategy… workforce strategy that underpins the council's strategic plan, which was the, which was the recommendation, there are, and as set out in paragraph 56 of my report, there are arrangements around service planning, workforce planning boards, and a corporate workforce board that look at those, that look at those issues at sort of that level, but it's that bringing it together, I suppose, which is the, which is the key recommendation, which would then support the council's response to the strategic changes, improvements … digital technology as well. And I think in terms of that, that complexity around it, I suppose, as we've already talked about, that will also link to some of the challenges and complexities around equal pay and grading and how those two are related. 
I think those will probably be as well the reason why. So I think in the audit report it’s marked as partially complete. And I think obviously that interdependency will be
a factor, I suppose, in that March 2027 timing. 

Jennifer Henderson  1:21:14
I mean, just an observation, I suppose, it's clear from your report that the council has identified some cross-cutting strategic workforce things it wants to do. You mentioned the youth employment strategy. So I presume that, the need to think about youth employment is now embedded in all these different strategic plans and those decisions are being made in the light of the fact the council has set a strategy around wanting to do more youth employment, but I think, yeah, a standalone people strategy would help bring that all together, clearly. 

Helena Gray  
…How it comes together, but I suppose just to provide that assurance that that planning is happening.

Jennifer Henderson  1:21:50
And then finally, in terms of the questions I had on staff satisfaction, just really want a little bit of assurance. You talk in your section on staff engagement about the fact the council hasn't completed a council-wide employee survey since before the pandemic and in the interim, they've been using alternative engagement processes. You then, and you've already talked a little about it, the culture checklist that's been issued. 
Is that the proxy that the council are currently using to understand how employees in the organisation feel, where they might need to drive improvement in order to sustain and get good staff engagement? Have I understood that correctly that they are now using that for that purpose?

Helena Gray  1:22:33
So I'll bring in the team, but I think that the culture survey is very much around that culture piece. I think, although the council hasn't done a full employee survey and I don't believe has any plans to do so at present, there are other ways in which the council is checking in on specific things, I suppose. 
So I think feedback on, you know, people project temperature checks, as mentioned, workforce diversity feedback. So I think there are other mechanisms, but I suppose again, it's that council-wide approach that, that's missing, but just to provide that reassurance that there are other… 

Jennifer Henderson  1:23:17
That does reassure me, because having had a look at the culture survey, I thought, well, this can't be a proxy to cover everything you might want to do in engagement. So it's useful to know that that isn't how the council are viewing it. That’s me, thank you, Andrew, on workforce questions. 

Andrew Burns  
Thanks very much, Jennifer. Anything else on workforce? Christine, do you want to…? 

Christine Lester  
Not really, no.

Andrew Burns  1:23:35
Anything specific on workforce, colleagues? Maybe just, was there anything more general that you wanted to ask before I draw the session to a close? Christine? 

Christine Lester  1:23:43
Just generally on the subject of equal pay, the risks, the timelines associated with it, just for clarification and transparency. Are we going to be asking any more questions or gathering any more evidence in private? Because I do recognise the sensitivities around it. Just important to flag as we are in public session. 

Andrew Burns  
Yeah, I'm sure we will come back when we get into the private discussion under item 11. We'll not be introducing any new evidence, but we may well discuss the issue further.

Christine Lester  
We will discuss it, I'm sure. My issue was around the evidence and particular questions, any more. 

Andrew Burns  
Thanks, Christine. Mike.

Mike Neilson  1:24:25
Oh, it's just a sort of ... running through this is that ... at the top level … [inaudible]
Are you not concerned that that … will actually … decision making … effective … transparency … challenges and choices made by the council?

Andrew Burns  1:25:06
Thanks. Helena? 

Helena Gray  1:25:07
I’ll bring Stephen in. I suppose my reflection on that would be that the annual audit report and then the Controller of Audit report, you know, they come at a point in time. I think what we've highlighted here and we've discussed some of the … recommendations and the complexity of the issues that are being faced and the interdependency of them. And I think actually when we're talking about the workforce, you know, recognising that actually that workforce strategy and that interdependency with, you know, work on pay and grading, and then when we talk about the finance, financial management, that interdependency with the finance system as well and I think it's how, so I think, and Stephen will want to come in, but my observation would be I think those interdependencies are recognised and there is an opportunity coming up, I think, to bring all of these things together and that points to the, you know, that strategic medium-term financial strategic plan setting out how all of that comes together as well. And I think there's that opportunity. Stephen. 

Stephen Reid  1:26:16
Absolutely. I think, Mike, you're absolutely right. I mean, I think that is a really fair observation and you can see that theme. It will be interesting where, you know, our thematic review for 25/26, what comes out of that and whether we identify
you know, something similar in relation to that. 
So I think there are, as Helena says, an opportunity here to bring that together, to bring those matters together. Is it something that I'm concerned isn’t recognised? No, I think that is recognised within the authority.

Andrew Burns  1:26:48  
OK colleagues, I'm going to try and draw us to a close then. We have spent just over, I think, an hour and a half going over Glasgow City Council's best value report. I mean, that's right and proper, as I think I said right at the start of the topic, I mean, it is the biggest council in Scotland that faces many similar challenges to other local authorities, but a lot of them are obviously of a quantum that are significantly different from other local authorities. So it is right that we've given it a very full and detailed discussion, there clearly are within the six themes we've discussed, some very significant issues that Glasgow is facing. And I'm really grateful to Helena, Stephen and Rachel for the time they've given us, not just in compiling the reports, obviously, but in responding to our many detailed questions this morning. So thanks very much to you three, thanks to my colleagues on the Commission for helping me try and keep this roughly to time. 
That does draw this item 5 to conclusion and as I hinted at, in response to Christine's earlier point just a few minutes ago, the Commission will discuss in private under item 11 later in the mission, later in the meeting, how it wishes to proceed going forward with the best value report for Glasgow City Council. And I'll pause there and hand over the Chair back to Jo, but thanks again to Helena, Stephen and Rachel.

Jo Armstrong  1:28:09
Bear with me for a few minutes.
OK, thank you all for that session. We're now into item 6, which is the local government policy update, and I hand over to Joe Chapman.

Joe Chapman  1:28:29
Thanks very much, Chair. Nothing really further for me to add. Yeah, it's obviously been the summer period, which in some ways has been quieter though there's been a steady stream of various things. And of course, the main show in time is the political changes at a UK level. But yeah, I'll keep it nice and brief and just open straight up to members for questions.

Jo Armstrong  1:28:49
Thanks Joe. Questions for Joe. Angela, then Christine, then Carol.

Joe Chapman  1:28:56
Thank you. Thanks, Joe. As ever, a really good update on what's happening in local government. 
I noticed in your report that there are changes at chief executive level in a number of councils, and, you know, before I come into my question, it's just worth, you know, acknowledging that we would expect that all staff are treated in accordance with the agreed policies and procedures. But that to the side, I wonder if there's been any conversations or any opportunity through engagement with Scottish Government for some of these changes to be highlighted as opportunities for the forthcoming Programme for Government, and especially in light of the public service reform proposals that will be coming forward?

Joe Chapman  1:29:43
Not aware of any conversations of that nature. In terms of the three that are highlighted in the report, it's worth noting that only one of those is currently a vacancy, the Aberdeen one, and I know that the council have started their process for recruiting a replacement. So that's kind of where we're at with each of the three positions. But yeah, not aware of, of that being looked at in that way at this point. 

Jo Armstrong  1:30:05
Thanks, Angela. Certainly something worthy of us considering how we might throw our thoughts into the mix as public service reform creates opportunities.
Christine.

Christine Lester  1:30:16
Thanks, Joe. Thanks, Joes, actually! Thank you, Joe. As usual, I read through this and think, you know, it's like a news bulletin of what's going on. And I'm always very grateful because I always find loads that I've missed in just generally looking around. 
However, and forgive me, colleagues, and Jo, if I go off on a bit of a tangent here.
There's nothing in it about the two things that have significantly affected the area in which I live, which is in Moray and the Highlands, which is wildfires. 
So this time last year there was a massive wildfire in the Davan Moor. I got the train down from Aviemore yesterday where you could still see smoke rising, it's still on fire, it's not out yet, and the significant implication for the public sector bodies around supporting and organising that. 
So my question is, and it might not be for Joe, it might be for all of us in terms of work programme. How is that coordinated? Because, for the people who live locally, it didn't seem to be coordinated at all. And economic implications are huge, especially for the Aviemore and the surrounds during their peak summer break. So the public bodies involved, obviously we're involved, Highland Council, community councils, but the other bodies like Scottish Fire and Rescue, the police, the Cairngorm National Park, Forestry and Land Scotland, the charities, RSPB, there doesn't seem to be any way that that was coordinated centrally by Scottish Government. 

Jo Armstrong  1:31:54
I'm not sure we can say anything about that, Christine.

Christine Lester  
No, I’m not… That is my question.

Jo Armstrong  
I think there’s a valid question in here but…

Christine Lester  
Do we know?

Jo Armstrong  
I wouldn’t want, at this stage, to make any judgement as to what… those who are living and breathing it are doing their best.
I think there's a valuable question to be added to our strategy session, is this an area that we could legitimately…?

Christine Lester  
I just wish… my point really is, if the local communities could understand how it should be managed or could be managed. 

Jo Armstrong  
Legitimate questions to ask. I wouldn't want to suggest there's nothing going on. 

Christine Lester  
No, I wouldn't suggest that at all because there's everything. There's been people there from all over Scotland helping to deal with it. So no, that's not my suggestion.

Jo Armstrong  
Carol.

Carol Evans  1:32:43
Thanks. Yeah, as always a useful and interesting report. A couple of small questions. I notice in paragraph 18 that Perth and Kinross have obviously increased their Council Tax for empty properties and that many of those are council properties. So, you know, their own policy is causing them cost. How significant is that cost in Perth and Kinross? I don't know the balance of unlet properties there.

Joe Chapman  1:33:12
I don't know the figures. Obviously, that would be something that might be looked at as part of an audit. I would say that in the context of the council budget, it's likely to be fairly small cost, and of course then you've got to balance that against the additional income that they're getting in from properties the council don't own that are subject to that charge as well. So, yeah, I would say that... I think it's quite a small impact. 
I guess it was something that I noted as something that I hadn't really thought about, because the fact that when you have a charge like that, properties owned by the council itself are then going to be subject to that charge. 
Of course, it's one of those where it's partly around bringing in more revenue, but also partly around the policy intent around discouraging people from owning those additional homes which they're not using and making them available for, for people who are looking for homes. So it's one of those where I think we've talked about things like low emission zones and things like that where it's actually about behaviour change as well as bringing in the revenue, and the more that you're successful with it, the less revenue you bring in.

Carol Evans  1:34:19
And then my next question is...
In the visitor levy to Edinburgh, one of the things they're spending on is housing, and my thought was that that was the visitor levy was to be spent on things specifically for tourism. So I was quite surprised to see housing in there, and just if you can allude to…

Joe Chapman  1:34:39
If I recall correctly, the kind of rationale behind that was that by investing in housing they’d be freeing up housing… accommodations, such as B and Bs, hotels that are currently being used as temporary accommodation. So that that would then be available to use for the tourism sector. It is a little bit of a, sort of, there's a couple of points of connection there, but that was the rationale behind it.

Carol Evans  1:35:07
And then the final one, and it's just a comment, I'm surprised at the scale, 860,000 of unpaid council tax from council employees.

Jo Armstrong  
Any other questions for Joe?
I, I…oh sorry, Mike.

Mike Neilson  1:35:29
On the, the various responses to calls for … pre-budget scrutiny. 
What, what, what was the scope of the calls? I’m conscious of our … public service reform committee so I wondered what … how broad the request was, and how we’ll, how we’re responding to it.

Sarah Watters  1:35:59
So there's two calls out, two formal calls out at the moment. So the one that we have been working with colleagues in PABV on is the PSR. The questions are actually very, very specific and they don't, they don’t give a huge amount of scope to get into the detail of the Commission's work. But what Joe and I have done is where possible, we have, we have, where there's been commentary about a kind of general position or the Auditor General, we have also sought to put forward the Commission's position as well. The questions made that quite challenging. What we have done is we've put our markers across that where we can. 
And I think Alison, who's been leading it, has, you know, she was very much encouraging us to focus on the questions, and I think there will be time after this period for us to get into those discussions with those committees, especially as I said at the beginning of the meeting, if Mr McKee, the Cabinet Secretary for PSR, wants to come to speak to the Commission, I think that's our opportunity. 
On the, oh gosh, the Social Justice, Housing and Local Government Committee, we met with the clerks last Friday and we've just gone back to clarify when the period for their pre-budget scrutiny starts. The committee is obviously, you'll appreciate, is a completely new committee. Jo, you have a meeting next week with Mr Hoy, the convener. They haven't published yet anything formally, but we're hoping we might get a chance to provide oral evidence as part of the committee's first kind of tranche of work in advance of the budget.

Jo Armstrong  1:37:38
Thanks, Joe.
Then takes us to item 7, which is Chair’s update. I want to point…
I want to pick up two of these small items, but I'm happy to take questions on anything that's there. 
As Sarah's quite rightly said, I've got a meeting, first meeting with the chair of the, or the convener of the Social Justice, Housing and Local Government Committee, Craig Hoy, next week. I've got an introductory meeting with the Deputy First Minister on the 23rd of September, subject to Parliamentary business. 
And Andrew, you hosted the first session on our recruitment process last week, and I'm hosting the second one today, this afternoon. Some people in the room who are coming along, which will be good.
And it looks like we've got some good, good level of interest at this stage, which is good. But happy to take questions on anything on any of that or anything that's in the report itself.
Takes us to a break.

Jo Armstrong  1:38:52
Emily, thank you again for coming along.
It's a, it’s a really important topic that you've … us into debating once a year. I think we’ll have a really great discussion around the table. We've come up with a variety of different questions from a variety of different perspectives, which is always a good thing too. And the purpose of the exercise is for us to get some understanding from you as to how well LGBF’s working, how well it's actually helping improve performance, how much it's being developed or where it might be developed. Yeah?
So maybe can I kick off with, there's such a lot in the report, you can almost get lost in it a little bit. So it's a bit like, how would, how should I read it as a, as a lay reader as to the extent to which I can be assured that local authorities are using
this vast dataset to help improve performance? How do we use it as a way of not … regulation, but of who's doing really well and how is that informing those … who's not doing so well as helping use the information to…? Is there something you can help us understand how that, how that … laid out as a consequence of this dataset? 

Kenneth Lawrie  1:40:14
Maybe I'll start and then Emily as the genuine expert in the room will come in behind me.
But I think we quite often talk about what the Local Government Benchmarking Framework is and what it isn’t. So it's a high-level benchmarking tool in the sense that the report, for all it's a lengthy document and a bit of a read, is no more than a kind of that, that, an introduction to that. 
So we always use the phrase a can-opener.
This is a, it's the, the framework is a way you kind of open the lid to lots of things that lie underneath, some of which sit within the framework, some which don't sit in the framework. And I suppose for us from the, from our perspective, it's really important that the data is considered in the round, and it's really important to note to have real understanding both of the sector and of any individual council, you need to combine this with other areas of knowledge about particular councils, particular challenges, we were just touching briefly in our conversation about the position with homelessness in Glasgow, for example, which is a huge factor, but it doesn't sit within the framework as it currently stands. So it is one of the issues we're looking at in terms of the development of the framework. 
So it's a partial view of a complex system. I, I suppose, what I'd like to think about the report is it gives people a really good starting point for getting into that deeper investigation. And you'll all remember that, though the report is quite substantial, it used to be much bigger. And I think it was a general reason for relief and celebration when we cut it back a bit. 
And I'm always interested in feedback about what is most useful, given the status of that document, given what it's for, does the current scale and content feel about right? I think, for those that are involved in the day-to-day basis, probably yes, but the idea of the general reader is an interesting one, and I still think it's really difficult to engage the general public … government benchmarking, because their interest tends to be service-specific, patient-specific, and perhaps to pre-empt a later question, saying to a disgruntled audience, actually, this service is in the top quartile, doesn't really help very much in terms of big, contentious discussions about the future of service provision. 
I don’t know, Emily, if there’s anything you want to add. 

Emily Lynch  1:43:11
I guess I would just add that, national report has until now very much focused on what we would say at a national level, and we've all pointed to the local reporting is where you get that much more granular understanding around about the progress that councils are making against their priority areas and that kind of deeper understanding. So up to this point, certainly, that's the separation that we've taken. So we've not attempted to use the report to tell a story about individual councils or which councils are doing well. As Kenneth said … and to do that because it's not a simple narrative and it would be misleading to try and present that as a...

Jo Armstrong  1:44:05
Can I perhaps be slightly controversial then, because if I am the lay reader, I am a community member and wondering about my services in my community and I'm looking at what's happening in Falkirk and what's happening in Clackmannanshire and I'm seeing different positions taken. 
Should I as a Falkirk Council Tax payer be happy or unhappy with that and should I be seeing improvements as a consequence of bringing those two together and you driving your priorities as a consequence? I mean, it's a bit, it’s a bit like there's an army of people collecting data, a lot of data being stored, how much is actually changing performance?

Kenneth Lawrie  1:44:45
I mean, this is a question we spoke about probably a few years ago now at the benchmarking framework board. It's really informed the strategy as we move forward. Because I mean, historically … but historically, it was something that was made available to councils, but it wasn't something where, the board, we were using it to try and drive sector improvement, and that's where the, that's where the change is now, and that's where the change has been over the last number of years. 
And the work on peer collaborative improvement is a particular example of that. And I suppose that still is in its relatively early stage. I think there's a lot of value, so the first example of that, in relation to Scottish Welfare Fund, Falkirk was the host, because actually our performance historically had been good, falling away quite significantly over a relatively small number of years. It was a well-led service, had a really good transformational service lead there. So actually bringing in other councils who were performing better, as a means of understanding what we needed to change, was incredibly valuable. And when we did that, performance shifted again pretty quickly. 
So I think as a chief executive, if you're driven about performance improvement, if you're concerned, even embarrassed about relative performance and you want to get, to make improvements then using the framework as a starting point for that is really important and the work in particular around peer collaborative improvement has been really good in that regard. 
I think the other thing that's been really important is actually the Accounts Commission putting it as part of the direction. Because if there were, councils who really weren't using it or not using it very much or were in the very early stages of it, the fact of the direction just is a bit of a game changer in that regard. So that feels to me like it's been a really important aspect. 
And I remember years ago talking about Local Government Benchmarking Framework at Solace meetings and you could tell who was kind of with you and perhaps those that weren't. And I think that's changed, and I think it was changing anyway, the different focus in local government and the agreed approach to sector-led improvement. But in fact, the Accounts Commission saying, well, actually, this is
part of the direction I think has been really important.

Jo Armstrong  1:47:30
Conscious you've got a presentation, but I'm also conscious we've probably all read the report and we've got lots of questions, so I don't know whether, do you want to use your presentation as, further insight into it or do you want to just take questions around the table? 

Kenneth Lawrie  1:47:44
Just to say, in terms of the presentation, we're not really going to talk about the report. 

Jo Armstrong  
Right, OK. 

Kenneth Lawrie
We're going to talk about our strategic priorities, where we're trying to move things on so that it might be helpful in terms of answering questions. We'll try and keep it relatively brief, and Emily's voice has been a bit delicate, I’m encouraging her to keep her part relatively brief as well!
So, these are the key messages from the overview report. I know you've already considered that in earlier meetings, so we won't, we won’t revisit that in detail.
Suppose if I was just going to say something on the back of the largely self-evident points in that slide. 
The 24/25 data shows that the challenge facing local government is increasingly one of sustainability. There's no lack of commitment or effort or innovation within the sector. But we see this, and you'll see this when you're looking at particular councils, real challenges around about sustaining particular services, growing risk to long-term resilience, and areas, notably, around about health and social care where the pressure really is pretty un, unrelenting. 
So, we'll just move on. That's the overview report. But let's talk a bit about our priorities and the work that we're trying to do, so. I think it was last year we shared the strategic priorities for our kind of next phase, 25 to 28. These are the areas we're looking at, what we've got a slide for each of those, so we'll go through these in turn.
But I suppose, I've touched on this already. It's the point about what the LGBF isn't, what it is and what it isn't. So it's high level, it's a can-opener, it's not a league table. It's this issue about the data being considered in the, in the round and I think that the other issue in Scotland, which is so evident, is the difference between councils. So you’ve been looking at Glasgow and actually you compare Glasgow, Clackmannan, issues around about demographics, issues around about rurality and deprivation, socio-economic differences are so stark that this can never be more than a starting point for understanding that, that variation, and that requires local knowledge, it requires local context, and it requires wider evidence. So, it's a partial view of a complex system, but we think it's a very important partial view nonetheless. 
So, move on again. Just to, talk a bit about where we're focusing on sector-wide performance improvement.
Peer collaborative improvement, we think, is a really important part of that, along with the framework itself and self-evaluation, then peer collaborative improvement is a way of us working as a self-improving system. As I said, the example in, in Falkirk was a really important one for us. So we had, we had pilots on the Scottish Welfare Fund, also on housing voids. We're now looking to apply this to a wider range of corporate and service areas. We've got new pilots which we're starting, and these are really testing different pathways into improvement activity. 
So the first one is about council-led peer collaborative improvement. So, we've got a pilot starting in East Lothian, hosted by them, about information government, governance, and that's about using self-evaluation and peer challenge to identify improvement opportunities and share learning. 
Then, we've also got peer collaborative improvement, which is informed by audit and scrutiny finding. And the pilot there is on asset management. Of course, that's been a recent focus and that’s being hosted by Dumfries and Galloway Council, again, looking to bring in other authorities who have made more progress, who are in a stronger position, to move that one forward. 
So, we're testing these different pathways into improvement activity. Now, self-evaluation, peer challenge and external assurance can operate, can open up a more coherent improvement system.
We are still at a relatively early stage. I think there's an interesting challenge about how you manage volume. These are quite intense pieces of work. You know, I think in the ideal scenario, we'd be, the Improvement Service and partners would be in amongst every council. Every council will have its area where peer collaborative improvement would be a good thing to do, but the capacity within the system to do that, I think is a challenge. That's something we might want to talk about more.
Just very briefly on national self-evaluation frameworks, this is work being taken forward by the Improvement Service. What we're trying to do is ensure that
the Local Government Benchmarking Framework is a formal and core evidence source, within that, so building LGBF into, you know, annual health checks and corporate overviews, promoting it as a means of challenging, providing a kind of an external check on self-evaluation. So, you know, we do a piece of self-evaluation, we feel that we've got a strong story to tell there, well, is LGBF telling us the same story or actually is it providing some contrary evidence or helping us to identify gaps?
And so there's a whole thing about making benchmarking and LGBF a standard element of self-evaluation, strengthening the link between self-evaluation and improvement, by positioning the peer collaborative improvement work very much in the centre of that. 
And then the last point we've already covered, really, you know, we see you as our allies in this, in this work and the direction is really important.
I’ll pass on to Emily just to pick up on a few other things. 

Emily Lynch  1:54:44
So in terms of the timeliness, this has always been one of the priorities of stakeholders is to keep pushing for the most effective timeliness we can deliver. And so we continue to release the data on a monthly basis, which just allows us really to make the data available to our stakeholders as soon as that data is published. So I think that's a huge step forward. That makes the data, this dataset much more dynamic. However, what we see is the more transformational changes in timeliness will come about through development of the Local Government Data Platform. I'll say a little bit about that later on. [Laughter]
So if I move on from that one, thank you. So I wanted to talk a bit about the work that we're doing to, you know, develop some of the areas within the framework, we recognise that some of the areas have some really important gaps in terms of the story that local government is trying to tell. So the board has focused in on some priority areas where the gaps are most important, you know.
There's scope here to do much more, but for this period, we're focusing on a small number of areas. Adult social care, I'd say, is probably our most important priority. There's recognition that the current suite is in part, incomplete, partial and incomplete, and so we have been working with Social Work Scotland, Health and Social Care Chief Officers, to really look at where are the themes, what are the themes where we need that stronger picture and that stronger narrative. So understanding demand, unmet need, for example, a clearer understanding about services for not just older people, but people with learning disabilities, mental health, substance use, dementia care in the community. There's a number of groups that are really important in terms of the work that the councils do, or partnerships do, and the demands, that are simply not currently reflected. So these are some of the areas we're looking at, also include transitions from children's services to adult services. We recognise that’s a … one of the main focuses here is we really want to develop the understanding around about the pressures, not just the activity, so that kind of more rounded picture as Kenneth was saying.
So, it's a really important piece of work. Within that, we're also looking at the more whole-system approaches. Yes, we're looking at, for example, housing and homelessness as well, but we're recognising that actually that we need to take a look across the service boundaries in order to really come up with a suite of measures that's relevant and useful there. So as you can imagine, the interconnections between homelessness, adult social care and workforce are very strong. So the partners we're working with on that are really recognising those. 
In housing and homelessness, we talked a bit before about homelessness as one of the priorities. We also want to look at housing supply, recognise that that's a gap at the moment and housing need, so something more about the demand for housing because there's nothing … there's something a bit about the asset and the condition of our housing stock. 
In terms of workforce, we wanted to look at a broader picture of workforce sustainability. The framework at the moment is very limited in relation to workforce and … what a key issue it is. There's going to be more of a focus on recruitment, retention, succession planning, capacity, resilience, these kinds of themes as well.
And we're also looking across the framework at those areas where we need stronger measures of effectiveness. We recognise that some areas of the framework where there are measures of cost and measures of satisfaction, but there isn't something currently about performance effectiveness or outcomes. So, an example of that would be leisure and physical activity. So, we're working with COSLA and the sector to look at what would meaningful effectiveness measures look at there … participation, health and prevention, for example, affordability, a number of themes we're looking at. Just to kind of flag that up, that these are really important areas of work and we will deliver upon them in the next year or so in order to actually include …
Building momentum. So I think, I hope this relates a little bit more to some of the points that you were making … about, are we seeing evidence that councils are actually making use of this data to drive improvement? So in my view, absolutely, we are seeing that evidence and the work we're doing is to try and surface that evidence and then share that evidence in order to support learning and practice sharing. So these are some of the ways that we're doing that. 
And we're definitely seeing evidence of progress in terms of councils moving from simply reporting the data to using the data, whether it's in decision making, whether it's in self-evaluation, for example, or improvement planning. And so, and we're going to continue our work to surface more and more evidence around that.
But certainly some of the use cases, you may have seen them already, if not, we'll certainly share them with you afterwards. We're seeing evidence, for example, of how councils are using the data to support financial decision-making, how they're taking the data and augmenting it with other information in order to inform budget decisions, to assess impact around about some of the savings that they have delivered over previous years, and also to have more informed conversations around about affordability. So we're definitely seeing more and more evidence of that progress. 
And we're also seeing evidence of that moving away from the league table, as Kenneth was saying, where people are more, I guess, mature or sophisticated, the way they're using the data. They're combining it with other local intelligence to provide a much richer picture of what's going on locally. And it's allowing them to understand demand and to combine the picture in terms of what they're delivering what the … picture is to understand the gap and to then look at what they need to do to address that. So that goes back to that sense that although the data is partial, it provides a great starting point to support those processes and we're seeing evidence of how councils are doing that. 
What we would say is that a lot of feedback we're getting is that it's supporting much better conversations and much better questions.
And in terms of the LGBF events, I'm just flagging this up because we think this is a really important step forward in the recent year and we really want to, we probably want to promote it more and we need to think more about how we might do that. I mean, we've run 12 events in the last year, there's 15 in the current calendar. 
It's delivered more than 30 case studies just during that period in terms of sharing practice and sharing improvements. And it's really providing a growing mechanism to support sector-led improvement and collaboration. So I think that's a really important element.
Last slide. Thank you. And, so here, I guess we just wanted to flag up that the LGBF Board is, continues to really drive forward those sector-led improvements to modernise the data reporting and the data landscape. And the LGBF continues to be at the heart of that, but round about that includes, for example, that wider work we were looking to develop around the Local Government Data Platform.
And that was, the intention of that is all about supporting local government to derive richer insight and greater benefit from the data they are already generating. And the update around that is there is a sector-wide LGDP bid that's gone into Invest to Save, which would support the initial development and implementation of the platform, and then local government have in principle provided agreement that they would then carry the running costs forward. We are currently still waiting for a decision on that at the moment and will certainly provide … 
In terms of all the other developments on this page, what they really represent is, if you like, the building blocks to that, in modernising the data reporting landscape. So they're all important and valuable in their own right, but they all provide that building blocks to the larger profession. And I would say that the aim for all of them is really about creating more capacity, both locally and nationally, to make use of the data, to support those conversations, to drive …making. At the moment too much capacity is going on that kind of manual aspect of collecting, reporting and gathering. We want to free up capacity to actually use the data, and that's really what all of this work is about. So, I'm happy to answer any questions in a moment. 

Jo Armstrong  2:04:54
Thanks Emily, you've triggered all sorts of questions from me … I know colleagues have got other questions, so I will open the floor to questions for Emily or Kenneth.
Angela.

Angela Leitch  2:05:07
Well done, again! I mean, this has been ongoing for years and it is great to see how it is being refined and adapted. So, I mean, I think we've got a lot of questions, but a couple of points. 
You mentioned the peer review, Kenneth. So, the Welsh model is pretty sophisticated, pretty mature. And I just wonder to what extent we're learning from that and the, the way that they do that in a really quite effective way. So that would be one thing. 
My second question was about, when I read the report, a stand-out that sickness absence is, you know, a colossal drain on productivity and resources. I may be wrong here, but it used to be that it was the only national policy that remained after single status. I'm not sure if it’s moved on since then. But is there any notion that looking at that policy might, collectively, might be something that local government could do to try and address some of the pressures on the, on the, on the budgets? 
And I suppose my final one is really on, how you feel some of this is influencing the, the national agenda, because there's a lot happening, we’re expecting the Programme for Government, the public service reform agendas… So to what extent can the Commission have assurance that this is really featuring large in some of those, those debates?

Kenneth Lawrie  2:06:47
I'm going to give Emily the chance to talk about the Welsh model and I'll have a bit of thinking time! [Laughter]

Emily Lynch  2:06:55
Yeah, we've been really interested in the Welsh model and we have been working with our colleagues in Wales, and they've been learning from us as well, because our approach is different from what they're doing. Their focus is more on a kind of corporate self-assessment, which obviously involves senior leaders across councils and that external input as well.
Our focus to date has more focused on services, so it's been working with services to look at how they learn from other services. So we are very interested in their approach and that corporate approach. And we think that there's a real opportunity to build on the introduction of the National Self-Evaluation Framework because that also has that focus on a corporate overview. And we think that that provides a real, really strong platform then for peer learning. So that's the direction that we're looking at and we're very keen to continue to learn from the Welsh one. We know that they're involving some colleagues from Scotland in some of their external, I think you called it that, the external review as well. So yes, we're very interested.

Kenneth Lawrie  2:08:05
Just thinking about the national agenda, I mean, we're all very interested to see what comes out in the Programme for Government about PSR.
I think in a way, from a local government perspective, we feel pretty unsighted on that. Because of course the strategy that came out last year was relatively silent on local government. So whilst I know that there's a great deal of interest, for example, in some of the shared services work that's, that’s going on, I think that in terms of if we're asking the question, are government looking at what's in LGBF as a means of informing? I don't really think they are, and I suppose the thing that occurs to me is when the Verity House Agreement
…
There was talk about having a set of indicators that local and central government could use in order to track progress. I suppose our reaction from some of us was, well wait a minute, we've got a set of indicators already. Let's not have even more indicators and evaluation information. Let's focus in on what we've, we've got. So, I remain to be convinced that it's got that kind of traction. 
So I think it's got much greater traction within local government. I think that the Accounts Commission position helps with that. But I'm not particularly optimistic on that score. 
And I’m, my expectations in relation to what it says about local government in the Programme for Government in relation to PSR are, I think, relatively low as well, because I think the indications are unclear. And the other thing that's worth saying is that, you know, Emily referred to the, the bids have gone in, the Invest to Save bids that have gone into government, which we've been awaiting a, feedback on for quite some time. I think whether there is support for that data platform work is going to be indicative of whether there is support for the kind of the broader piece of work we're talking about here. And alternatively, if it goes into more specific pieces of work happening at a council level, I think that will indicate a slightly different priority.
In terms of sickness absence, and I know, Angela, you'll know much more about this than I do in terms of the collective position, and I… there's a difficulty, I think, there could be a challenge in from unions if we go into that, that wider review of policy. 
I think there's a lot we can still do locally, and actually I look at that certainly from a Falkirk perspective, from a kind of Invest to Save point of view, because our experience, if you bring in additional resource to focus in on some of the most challenging cases around about sickness and absence, you can make a real difference. And just by having that, if the organisation and people know that the organisation is focusing in on that as an issue, it makes a difference.
So, for example, as an organisation where our, our teacher sickness has always been really low, our broader workforce sickness is significantly higher, that's the kind of approach we're taking locally, saying, OK, we're getting an additional resource because we know that particularly in relation to areas like health and social care, we're all looking to bring in agency staff and this sort of thing. But actually, if you focus in on that, you can make a, you can make a real difference. So my thinking on that has been more using LGBF to then promote local action rather than a national framework.

Jo Armstrong  
…then Carol.

Ruth MacLeod  2:12:17
I was just interested in the … unmet need in areas like adult social care and housing and homelessness. I imagine that is quite difficult to capture, but I also think it's quite important to the narrative in terms of … these major areas. It's also going to have an impact on satisfaction levels when there's unmet need. Is that captured in any way? Are there plans for that and challenges around that potentially?

Emily Lynch  2:12:51
So I think you're right, we recognise that we need more information on that within our wider suite. So that’s exactly…
… 
…is very important for the narrative, like you say, it will impact on a whole number of different interconnections again. So I would guess, I would just say, no, it's not currently represented, but it is part of our programme of work. So I hope next year when we come back, we'll be able to say "here's what the new data is showing us" and then...

Kenneth Lawrie  2:13:35
Just on that, I mean, in terms of the link with satisfaction, well, whilst we perhaps can't demonstrate that at framework level, we all know that to be the case. An awful lot of the dissatisfaction in our communities is about what's not happening, what isn't provided, or about the state of the environment and therefore what's perceived as being not done or not sufficiently well. And I think we see a lot of dissatisfaction, complaints activity flowing precisely from that. 

Ruth MacLeod  2:14:03
…part of the picture, doesn't it? 
…can measure and what's happening. There's a whole lot of things that are not happening, and that could constrict even more sharply, I think, in the coming years. So, it's a slight worry and concern if we, if we cannot capture when we stop doing things or…
…impact of that, how do we capture that and gather it? 
…the implications of … restrictions and the lack of funding to deliver certain services. 

Kenneth Lawrie  2:14:41
I think that's right. I mean, it doesn't, it doesn't prevent us from acting, of course, particularly in health and social care partnerships across the country, the issues around about unmet need are front and centre of the considerations because of the challenges that’s now driving in terms of flow through the system, blockages, all this kind of stuff. And I think as councils, we need to use what we know about … dissatisfaction to then invest in some of these areas which will make a difference. I think a lot of that point is around about place, you know, people look out in their communities and they, they don't feel like places are being invested in.

Jo Armstrong  
Carol.

Carol Evans  2:15:26
Thank you. I welcomed your focus on health and social care and the different measures. What I noticed was absent from that, we know that the ASN audit kind of talked about, that the measures are just not appropriate to answer the questions for, it’s too broad to say, 70% of people have an ASN need, but what does that actually mean?
Considering that feeds into workforce and considering that that's one of the biggest spends of councils, do you have a plan for that to be also be a focus and when would that be?

Emily Lynch  
Can I just check, do we mean additional support needs for children or is it children and adults? Or… 

Carol Evans  
Additional support needs for children in schools being 70%, but the number is not all disability. There's all, and we couldn't drill down on the teacher needs because we couldn't just unpick that 70% number. 

Emily Lynch  2:16:17
So this is one of, we've got 6 priorities and I only gave 4 just because of time, but yes, it is included. And we've been working with ADES in particular and flagged up national work that's taking place around about the framework for additional support needs. And so we're looking to be informed by the work that's taking place, but that is Scottish Government and COSLA I think around about additional support needs, to help inform what our particular focus is on that area. 
We recognise it’s something we need to reflect, given, as you say, the growing importance, but also our lack of insight on what's actually happening. Additional interest also relates to then the transitions for these children into adult services as well. So we are particularly interested in that as well. So yes, definitely we agree, we think that's a really important area and it is included in our plan.

Carol Evans  2:17:19
And then, another question I had, and it was just, maybe just the way you said it. You said if people self-evaluate the Local Government Benchmark Framework, it will be an external check. But if they’re self-evaluating, how is that an external check? It's maybe just, did I pick you up wrong? 

Emily Lynch  2:17:35
It’s based, so in terms of self-evaluation, whether it's a national self-evaluation framework or models like PSIF, for example, they're based on councils using a framework to self-assess how they're performing and where the areas for improvement are. And what we are positioning LGBF is that it provides that external check [cough] excuse me, to complement those individual assessments of staff, for example, on how they view their services in terms of areas of for improvement and strengths. Sorry, I’ve maybe not explained that very well. 

Carol Evans  
OK, so you've got other people also assessing it, not just the self-evaluation?

Emily Lynch  
So, a self-evaluation means that the council is, that's right, sorry. 

Carol Evans  
That's why I didn't see the external check if they're doing it themselves? 

Emily Lynch  
I see what you mean. So basically, they're doing the self-assessment, but the LGBF, if you like, is a neutral evidence base that, it doesn't, it's not based on subjective assessment of how the service is performing. It provides that kind of neutral, autonomous, objective data that will allow the council to just cross-check, do their views of the service match with what the actual data tells them about their service. I'm sorry, sorry, I didn't explain that very clearly.

Jo Armstrong  
Andrew. 

Andrew Burns  2:19:04
Thanks, Jo. Thanks, Kenneth and Emily, for the report and the presentation. You're right, Kenneth, it is much shorter still than four years ago, which I really welcome.
Kenneth I think, and Emily I think you mentioned as well, I think I heard you say, well you did say you very much welcomed the inclusion of the indicators in the SPI Direction and so on, I think you said it was a game changer. So, I'm just wondering, I had a general, more general question along these lines anyway. 
I mean, is there something else the Commission, as the Commission, a single entity, could be doing to raise the sort of profile and constructive usage of the indicators beyond inclusion in the indicators, sorry, inclusion in the SPI directive?
And sort of linked to that, I guess. I mean, we can't obviously, unfortunately, direct the Scottish Government, but is there anything we can be doing in terms of influencing? Because I think you alluded to in answer to Angela's question, the reticence about anything significant coming out of the Programme for Government in this regard, Kenneth. 
I mean is there any, but is there anything that we, not just that the Commission could do to raise the usage and constructive profile indicators. But is there anything we can be doing to press the government specifically on? We've got in effect a new government, chair and vice chair are meeting various people just now for the first time in current roles. And so there's an opportunity potentially there.
Will they listen? That's an open question. But just wondering if there was anything you felt we could do or we could pass on to the government through our upcoming contacts to try and raise it further, the profile and constructive usage of the indicators. Hope that makes sense.

Kenneth Lawrie  2:20:40
Yeah, I mean, I think that the inclusion in the Direction gave a kind of clarity of...
in relation to LGBF, which was, it was and is being widely used as a sector. It was a game-changer because it just it removed the element of doubt. It removed the element of doubt. I, from the board point of view, that felt really significant. 
And no I can't think of another action that would have a kind of similar impact. So I suppose for me, it's more about maintaining that, that line of argument. 
I mean, I think that the Accounts Commission takes a pretty strong view on a whole series of topics and it gets noticed. And I think if you're, when you're in discussions with government I suppose it’s about, part of it’s about re-emphasising the strength of what's in place and using that in terms of further development, because I think there's always a tendency, and I mentioned the Verity House Agreement, to think that we need something new, whereas often what we need is the improvement of what we've got, and we, we talked about how we're trying to make this more effective and having a greater impact and helping to improve services. 
And I think sometimes that's not an easy message to get through, but if we're seeing it from a local government perspective, and you're seeing it from a, an Accounts Commission perspective, then I think it’s more likely to carry some weight and make some, make some difference. 

Andrew Burns  
Well, that's really helpful. Thanks very much. 

Jo Armstrong  2:22:27
As Sarah's point, rightly pointed out to me, it's also included in our updated code. So we are taking this very seriously. 

Kenneth Lawrie  
Yes, indeed.

Jo Armstrong  2:22:36
Some of us have challenges about capacity and capabilities of some of the data that we want to use. That will be for another day. 
Mike and then Jennifer.

Mike Neilson  2:22:46
I might be cheeky and turn Andrew's question the other way around, which is, given that we are pushing you and supporting you, what can you do for us?! [Laughter]
And I'm particularly interested in this, this trying to get from 100 and however indicators to some indicators that might give you an overall sense of performance. I was very struck by what you said about, that’s what … the Verity House Agreement.
So I suppose it's a challenge as to, are there indicators or composite indicators, or ways of actually getting that … ?
Second thing I was interested in was the … between the performance and maybe the outcome indicators, and funding.
I think it's easy to understand that there is no parasymmetric relationship, but lots of other, other factors that might affect how what you spend … performance. But it's again a question of looking in a more sophisticated way … the, what you can say about those relationships.
I was struck by what you were saying … you can't … the indicators relate to each other. And in order to reach an outcome, you may actually …
And that sort of reasoned analysis.
[Inaudible]
I recognise that’s … those feel like the things which can be really fundamental.

Kenneth Lawrie  2:24:52
I mean, it's a pretty challenging question, a pretty challenging area, one perhaps we've always wrestled with to a degree. 
In a sense, of course, it was, the challenge wasn’t made clear, in the context of Verity House, you, that, to have a set of, a relatively small number of indicators that gives you that comprehensive sense of performance. It's extraordinarily difficult. I think it would be difficult in any context, but it's particularly difficult in a context where variation in 32 councils is so great. 

Jo Armstrong  2:25:31
…peers, so you've actually got them into peer groups. 

Kenneth Lawrie  
We have. 

Jo Armstrong  
…accepted that there are similarities and differences. 

Kenneth Lawrie  
Yes. 

Jo Armstrong  2:25:38
Within the similarities, there must be ways of saying that group deserves this set of indicators to be able to show performance for that peer group. 
I'm struggling with this number of indicators. And you've already talked about adding to them. Thinking, how on earth do we really give it a real boost by saying these are the key ones we think as a Commission are the critical ones. I would like you to tell us why you think those are the right critical ones and then use them. 
That number of, as I said before, there's an army of people collecting that data and managing it. Do you have data analysts analysing it? Do you have economists looking at the correlations and coefficients to see whether they're robust or not? There's a lot to go in there without adding to the list of indicators. 
I think it's really, really valuable, but, but you have to tell us because we can't tell you. But adding to the number of indicators isn't improving your case for these are a robust set of indicators to show performance, and show you value for money, and to show how they're learning to improve over time.

Kenneth Lawrie  2:26:47
I mean, adding to the number of indicators is about trying to have a more comprehensive picture. 

Jo Armstrong  
How many more do you need? I mean, a comprehensive picture of what, Kenneth? 

Kenneth Lawrie
I mean I… 

Jo Armstrong  
You can add till the cows come home. 

Sarah Watters  2:27:03
I think it's like Emily was saying about the gaps, you know, I suppose it’s… Emily, I think you described it nicely to me that there's some areas that actually, there's some professional groupings would say, actually, just leave our area, just take our indicators out. But actually, it's about, no, we're not taking them out because we need something that reflects the current service delivery model more effectively. 

Emily Lynch  2:27:25
Absolutely. In addition to that, there's also the element that a good practice principle in terms of how we see use of the LGBF locally, which ultimately is what it's designed for, it’s to be used locally by individual councils, is that flexible use of the framework, is that they draw from the framework, they choose those indicators that are relevant for them. So exactly as you're saying, that subset of indicators, what we're seeing more and more is councils doing exactly that. So even if we add to the overall basket, what that does is enables councils more and more to select that suite of indicators that has relevance to them locally. So that's been the direction that we've been travelling is to support councils to do that, rather than trying to do it at a national level, because I don't think we think a national level is particularly feasible or will provide a meaningful story.

Jo Armstrong  2:28:21
OK, I'm going to, I'm going to agree to disagree, but today is not the point to discuss that, OK, because I do think there's some really useful data in there. But I think there's too many indicators from the point of view of allocating scarce resources and identifying priorities and informing improvements across that suite. It's almost…
You can use the data to hide. It's the hiding behind it. I've got my own suite, so I'm not worrying, is the issue for me, that is the wanting assurance that self-evaluation is going to actually pick up performance over time improvement. 
Conscious I’ve one more, Jennifer, and then we might have to call it… This is a can opener, most definitely.

Kenneth Lawrie  
It’s a, that's a debate I'd be really interested to take forward. It's an important one, but it's not at all, it's not at all straightforward. 

Jo Armstrong  
Agree.

Mike Neilson  2:29:13
And you don't know necessarily, just… it’s not necessarily a problem with having more indicators, so long as you have a coherent way of looking at the…

Jo Armstrong  2:29:22
It’s the extent to which you have the capacity, capabilities and finance to keep them going. That's the challenge for me. You've got a scarce resource, which is the best use of that scarce resource in something like this? 

Kenneth Lawrie  2:29:31
That's where the data platform is really easy, but it was a previous comment you made about, you know, do we have data analysts and economists and people looking at it? 
And I think that that, the resource will vary hugely between councils, and for a very small council, this will be a team, but it could be a team of one person who's really working on this stuff. So every service will be concerned about performance, but actually that central resource, which historically has been squeezed over the last 10, 15 years, because it’s more easily squeezed than others. 
So whereas on the other hand, I know that, for example, in Glasgow, I think it’s part of the, the City Deal, that they've got a kind of an intelligence unit, which is probably invaluable in terms of that, that kind of insight.

Jo Armstrong  
Jennifer.

Jennifer Henderson  2:30:19
Something Emily said that I wanted to pick up on, if I may. I mean, just, you mentioned, one of my questions was about how are councils really using this, particularly in relation to budget-setting? And you said, Emily, that you are seeing evidence of that. And I think I'd be really interested if you feel comfortable to just expand, because I guess to Jo's point about, it sort of doesn't matter how many indicators you have, but actually are people using them to inform decisions? And
are, are better decisions coming out of having this resource available? So, I'm really interested if there's something else you can share on the kind of examples we're seeing. 

Emily Lynch  2:30:54
We're definitely seeing growing evidence, it’s an area of growing focus for us to work with finance colleagues to look at how they're working within the councils to use this data. 
I would say that's a relatively new, in that it's, we've always had performance colleagues making lots of use of the data, but it's more recently developed that we're getting our finance colleagues, our finance partners, business partners to actually utilise the data and work closely with services to actually understand, interrogate, combine with other intelligence. I think that's a really important element with the finance, not just taking the indicator, but really understanding what are the different aspects of that indicator, what are the different elements, and you need the finance colleagues to then be able to break down which aspects are the factors that are driving, whether it's increasing costs, whether it's reducing costs. 
So as well as the case studies, which we can share, we've also done some tailored work with councils around about this as well, where we brought our finance, we've got a finance group, and we've brought them in to work with the councils, where they have brought together their services and their finance colleagues to really interrogate the data, to break it down, to better understand what's driving the levels that they're seeing, and to then look at where are the real opportunities here to actually prioritise improvements or savings or efficiencies. 
So, so it's been a really positive area of work and I would say that we're definitely seeing some really…

Jennifer Henderson  2:32:27
That just feels really encouraging in terms of our constant message around financial sustainability to really start to see how councils are using this data and finance teams are using this data to sort of feed into that agenda. So thank you.

Jo Armstrong  
Thanks, Jennifer. 
I think the last question, Ruth. 

Ruth MacLeod  2:32:44
I think it's quite a quick question, but I just wanted to ask about the data platform, because there was mention about things like data quality and timeliness, but I'm wondering, will it also help stakeholders use that data in different ways, that are more accessible for the likes of elected members looking at data and making judgements, and the public. Is that going to be an element of that platform, just being a bit more sophisticated about how people can surface the information? And the thinking behind it. 

Emily Lynch  2:33:20
It allows them to really look at information … there’s so much out there at the moment … about improving accessibility. But yeah, a lot of the design work … work will be about identifying … earlier around about some of the common themes … together and it making it easier for them. 
So, if you wanted to look at additional support for learning, for example, as a theme, it would then allow you to pull all of the data that was in that set that was relevant to that and present it in a way that actually allowed you to understand…

Ruth MacLeod  
That would seem quite a positive thing if that progressed… Yeah. 

Emily Lynch  
Incredibly exciting. Real opportunities. 

Ruth MacLeod  
Great. Thank you.

Angela Leitch  2:34:10
Can I just add to that? … from Ruth.
I think it is, I think the data platform’s going to be a game changer. One observation, again, and my knowledge of this area might be a bit dated now, is that there are multiple national data, data teams working across Scotland. And I know that you've, you mentioned earlier, Emily, about putting in a bid to the Invest to Save fund.
I'm just wondering what is happening within the sector to demonstrate that you're creating enough capacity from the existing resources that you've got that will then augment whatever you get from government or did that, do you need the money from government because this is a critical development.

Jo Armstrong  
So if you didn't get the money from the government, what would happen?

Emily Lynch  
Can't answer that today! 

Kenneth Lawrie  2:35:04
Well it certainly delays the process. I mean, for me, when the Improvement Service was doing some of the initial work around about the data platform, you know, the number of asks of data. … The time taken to do that is extraordinary. And of course, the challenge from our point of view, our challenge to government is what's being done with this data. And I suppose our suspicion was that quite a lot was, of data was collected for reasons which were historically justifiable, but actually no longer applied. 
So just to have that kind of rationalisation of the system, rationalisation, I suppose, for us and automation, would make an enormous difference and means that actually the resource within councils is more focused on the challenges around about improvement, rather than the gathering and provision of information, which isn't necessarily well-used. 
So I do think we’ve got, if that funding doesn't come through, I do think there's a kind of a fundamental ask for us about well, where next do we go on this? Because I do think that it's, it's really important just to have that sensible rationalization of what is an incredibly complicated and messy system.

Jo Armstrong  2:36:26
…control of managing this meeting! One last, Mike. 

Mike Neilson  2:36:30
Well, just to say, again on the, on the data platform, I wonder whether the, it would be a major failure if the government's public service reform strategy did not have a very large data component, and I just wonder, I’m quite interested in your thinking about how far it's the funding for the data platform and how far it's, as it were, having the data platform as, as a component of the overall approach.

Kenneth Lawrie  2:37:04
I mean, I think that there's a recognition at the Scottish Government level of the importance of getting issues around about data sorted out.
So I think that will come. I suppose the challenge is quite an immediate one., in that there's an Invest to Save fund, bids go in and the bids usually exceed the volume of money available. So, and by its nature, this is quite a long-term piece of work, it's not a quick win. So in a way, and this is simply a personal view, it wouldn't surprise me if the funding goes to things that are seen as being quicker wins for the Scottish Government than the data platform. That’s, might well prove to be wrong in that. I hope so.

Emily Lynch  2:37:49
Yeah, I hope so. I mean, the feedback we've had from colleagues in Scottish Government is that this fits really well with their ambitions as well. And so they’ve been incredibly supportive in terms of, you know, this is part of their wider vision and if local government is going to take this forward, then that really works for them too.
So we’ve certainly heard a lot of supportive noises, but yeah, it's just whether or not this particular fund comes through, I'm not sure. 

Kenneth Lawrie  
An ongoing practice doesn't necessarily tie in with that strategic, strategic narrative.

Jo Armstrong  2:38:24
As I said at the end there, this is a definitely a can-opener. I know Blyth and Sarah who sit on the board have heard me ranting about how we can make best use of it now we can understand the capabilities and capacities of what this data is.
A platform like that, you need to know the data quality is there. I'm pretty sure the data quality as an issue needs to be resolved. But that's an ongoing piece of work for you, I'm sure.
I'll look to Blyth and Sarah to keep us informed of what's going on. I'll happily have offline conversations about how best to support what we can do in this because I don't think, I do think a data platform and I do think effective data is the right way to go forward. Whether it's this data, I don't know. Being candid with you, because there's so much of it, I wouldn’t… to get through the wood from the trees, difficult to know. 
But I really want to be, we really want to be supportive of what you're trying to achieve here, Kenneth and Emily. And I want to thank you for coming along again and enduring our cross-examination yet again. Thank you. 

Kenneth Lawrie  
Thank you.

Emily Lynch  
Thank you very much. Really helpful. Thank you.

Jo Armstrong  2:39:42
Brings us to item 9, any other business? Is there any other public business members would like to raise today?
On that basis, I will close the public session. Thank you.